Dr. Dorianne Cara Weil and Greg Blank
It Could Always be Worse: How not to let Hardship go to Waste
Dori Weil and Greg Blank - It Could Always be Worse! How not to let Hardship go to Waste
- I guess you sent it in. Gregory Lex blank was the high-flying golden boy, or maybe Dori sent this in.
No, no, that’s-
Look, all I’m going to say is Gregory Lex Blank was the high-flying golden boy of the Johannesburg Stock Exchange until the police knocked on his door just before midnight on the 10th of March, 1991. This was the start of a five year nightmare, as the young stockbroker, millionaire before the age of 30, was arrested, tried, and finally sent to jail on 48 charges of fraud. Greg, I want to introduce you as the most lovely person, the most fabulous friend. I’ve known you for so many years. It’s always so great seeing you. You are absolute sunshine. And as our mutual friend, Andrea Kerzner said, “You’re the best friend in the entire world.” So, I am so thrilled to have you on, sharing your story. Thank you, Dori, for organising it with Greg. And, Greg, it’s just such a pleasure to have you as part of “Lockdown” family and our extended family. So a very warm welcome and thank you for making time for us. Thanks, Dor’s, I’m going to hand over to you.
Thanks so much, Wendy.
Pleasure. Thank you, Wendy. And, Greg, I can only echo Wendy’s sentiments. Thank you so much for being here. It is an amazing story and we are going to just go over the story. But, really if we look at the title of it tonight, it is to do with, and this was a title that you chose. “It Could Have Been Worse, Lessons From Hardship,” or “How Not to Let Hardship Go to Waste, How Not to Let Suffering Go to Waste.” Because as you were talking about, life happens, no one’s immune to life. Everybody has sometimes predictable and often very unpredictable life events that may even be labelled as crises. And I guess the question, if you are looking at today, is certainly what was your crisis? And there’s been more than one. I know that you’ve had health challenges as well, other challenges, that are part of your journey in life with this amazing and huge, huge challenge of will and tenacity that you had to go through. And I guess the question is, are there lessons? And how do you not let suffering go to waste? And when I really started looking at, is there a common thread? Are there lessons that irrespective of the event, that people come up and learn? And, indeed, almost everyone talks about the healing power of support. That there’s a priority shift, that don’t ever say to me me face reality again. I learn about patience, I learn about optimism, I learn about tenacity, I learn about control, those kind of things. But we want to talk to you, first of all, let’s look at the title and say, why did you choose “It Could Have Been Worse”?
Listen, Dori, in life, everything can be worse. I think you have to understand that everyone’s realisation of what happens to them is the worst that can happen to them. All right, so really what I’m saying is that everyone’s reality of how bad it can be is their own reality. I just had a different way of trying to get through my own, and understand, my nightmare was self-inflicted. I couldn’t blame anyone other than myself. And once you take accountability for your actions, then everything becomes a lot easier. People struggle to be accountable. When you’re not accountable, you are always behind the eight ball. And the way I got through, and it probably started off, the jail issue was an issue by itself. But the army taught me the most amazing amount of discipline. Going on an officer’s course, being the only guy going out to play tennis, coming back, being scrubbed in a big tin, whilst your fellow sort of soldiers looked on. Those are all tests to prepare you how to go forward. You know, going to the stock exchange, getting arrested, coming out, listing a business. All those little journeys I treated as a chapter. And I think it’s important to understand is that the way I get through life, and the way I handle adversity is not everyone’s cup of tea. It’s the same what you went through, the way you handled and what was your journey, or how a prisoner handles going to jail and the realisation of getting out and what he does. All of those are chapters.
And provided the chapters flow, you’ve got a fair chance of surviving. The reality is, if you don’t, the consequences are dire. But everyone’s mental strength and mental aptitude is not the same. And I think you’ve got to realise that. I mean, especially with your background. As you said, you know, “Everyone can come with every truism that they want.” You know, I learned this, I did that. I should have done that, I’m a better person. That’s all rubbish, okay? Quite frankly, why do we wait for a situation to happen and then we change? Why do we think people are our friends and in reality they’re not when an event happens. How good a friend could they have been? And I went through all of those emotions. People I was speaking to five times a day, I couldn’t get hold of. People that I’d made a lot of money, didn’t want to speak to me. Whether it was their own sort of fear of being associated. These are all things that you have to go through and understand. And I’ll boil it down in my little humble way, of ego. For me, ego absolutely destroys. And you have to get over that. If you want to go forward you have to bury that ego and keep on going.
So, Greg, I think that this is all absolute truisms and it’s the way that you coped and you got through and you rose again. I mean, as Wendy was introducing you, I remember in those early days when I met you, I mean first of all, you were a friend of my brothers. Second of all, I inherited a small portfolio of shares. And there was only one person. I mean, there wasn’t even a doubt of who I would be contacting. You know, it was absolutely you. You made me feel that it was the hugest portfolio of shares in the world. You would contact me on a daily basis. I would kind of wait for my Greg fix. And you would make it exciting. You were charming. There was something that is absolutely compelling about you, you’ve heard this over and over again. And you flew very close to the sun. I mean, you heard what Wendy said. You were not only the whizz-kid, but you were liked, respected. And I think that that respect is incredibly important to you. You wanted to be the person that you would choose to be friendly with. And, therefore, you know, when this all happened, and maybe the fear of loss of respect, I want to ask you about that. But what I want to ask you about is you can say, “get ego out of the way.” Or you can make a statement to say, “negativity is a wasted emotion.” Or you can say as one peruses your book, which I mean you just can’t put down, of how you managed to build a philosophy that would result in compartmentalising your mind. You were in what you were in at the time and then you had to carry on with life. You make these things, in a way, sound as if they should be possible. Maybe they are possible, but maybe more probable for most people. Yet, I know being overcome by emotion. Feeling not being able to be positive all the time. Maybe trying to maintain some optimism. But I can’t pretend that I’m positive when I’m feeling overwhelmed and devastated and uncertain and insecure and scared. So I want to talk to you about what is it that enables you to do that, and how?
Okay, so let’s sort of rewind a bit what you’re saying. Obviously, no one can be happy all the time. I mean that’s not realistic. We can put on a brave face and pretend that we’re happy, okay? But that just doesn’t happen. Obviously-
Was that you-
And maybe I’ll relate something to you so it’s probably easier to understand, okay?
Okay.
Is that when I got, okay. And they arrived at two in the morning and took me to John Vorster Square, even then, I didn’t believe that I was getting arrested. I thought it was a game. So, I upped the game. I slept at John Vorster Square on a bench. Woke up in the morning, no one knew what I was doing there. And I said, “Well, I’m here.” The guy said, “Well, you may as well go home.” I said, “But I don’t think I’m allowed to.” And then the process started, okay? And I started getting all these calls, reading the newspaper. And you’re starting to realise, “Wait a sec, this is my life. This is happening to me. How do I get through it?” And to tell you, the initial few days, Dori, was so intense that I could hardly get out of bed. When I got out of bed, I walked to my bathroom, put my head in my lap, and I had to talk to myself just to get up, just to motivate myself to get up and to try and do something. ‘Cause remember I couldn’t go back to the Exchange, from being busy every day, I now had nothing to do. So what did I do? I’ve always exercised my whole life. So I started even doing more. Running in the morning, running in the evening. But even that was a hardship. Putting one foot in front of the other. Why am I giving you this convoluted story, is that no matter what you’re faced with, and no matter how hard it is, it could always be worse. I mean, if you think about it logically.
Okay, all right, I got sentenced to eight years. I was supposed to have nothing. We did a deal with the state. That deal didn’t happen. I could have gone to jail for 15 years. I could have been killed in jail. You know, people always like to look at the negative. To make a positive out of a negative situation is the tricky part. And that’s why even when you are feeling down and you’re feeling that you can’t see the end, I compartmentalise each little block. When you’re faced with so many alternatives, people don’t see a solution. And you see this in everyone’s life. “I’ve got money problems. The maid never came. The car’s not working.” And what happens is that all of those problems are just too much. So what happens? Instead of doing one at a time, people implode. Now, it’s so easy to implode, okay? I’m obviously not talking about people who are, sadly, affected with some sort of mental illness because sometimes, obviously that dark place needs to be attended to. I’m talking about, hopefully people like you and I, everyone else listening, even if they are neurodiverse and they’ll understand what I’m saying, is that life is not a bed of roses, you know? No one gave you a guarantee. And sadly, that’s what some people think. They are entitled to this blessed life. They are entitled to be better than the next. Sadly, that doesn’t happen. And the lesson in jail, which coming from a privileged background, okay? Where we were loved and we had a roof over our heads, you all wear the same clothing. And that green clothing makes you the same as everyone else. And that’s what people need to understand. Being surrounded by material things and everything else doesn’t necessarily help your journey. It makes it more comfortable, but at the end of the day if you strip yourself bare, and I’ve been stripped bare, Dori, please believe me, okay? Life becomes so much easier 'cause everything is upside. Every single thing becomes upside. So, when I say, “it could always be worse,” it could always be worse. But if I know that’s rock bottom, I’m easy.
Yeah. Now you used that philosophy in prison as well. I think that you called it “emotional blackmail” where you’ve got nothing to lose. I want to talk to you about that. But before we do, I don’t want to lose what you’ve just said. Because before this happened to you, if I had to say to you, honestly, Greg, before this happened to you. “Greg Blank, what would you say the definition of success is?” You’ve learned a lesson and I think you’ve changed your mind. But what would you have said?
When you are young and you’re starting out, okay? Obviously the definition of success, and, sadly, we are all driven about, is how much money have you made? Okay, what car you drive, where do you live? And I’m first to admit it is that I did fall victim to it. And to a certain degree I wouldn’t say I’m rid of that, because I’ll always, whenever I made a bit of money, or I won something at the horses, I rewarded myself. I bought a present. I loved buying art. That was my passion and that gave me that sense, okay, of fulfilment. Okay, lucky I bought the art because when I got into trouble, I was able to sell some of the art. And I think you might be the lucky recipient of that.
I was.
But the bottom line is that I believe that you have to reward yourself. And it doesn’t have to be with material things. You know, when I look at people and I interact with people, is that as long as they’re giving me a 100%, I’m going to give them 100%. The problem is, and, sadly, in life, there are a lot of people who are purely there for the ride. And as soon as that ride stops, they hop off the bus, and they think that you owe them an existence. So, you know, all these little things you learn. And it’s trial and error. I didn’t bounce into this world knowing that this would be my sort of journey and how was I going to handle it? I only handled it by one way. I had no alternative.
Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that what you’re saying is you had no alternative, but we are extracting what you learned because I want other people to hear that. As you said in the beginning, you know, do you actually have to go through, not the same journey, but individual journey? We speak about comparative suffering. We are not saying that, you know, I have to compare what I’m going through to yours. Yours is worse, mine is better. Yours is yours, yours is your own. And you’re going through it at the time, you know? They are such valuable lessons, Greg. I mean, I’m sure that you, maybe you don’t even realise, when you impart this, you know, success, what is it? Power, money, status. You have no idea how many people still believe that that is fulfilment. What you saying is when you were stripped of that, there were other things that took priority. And I love that you say you reward yourself. Because one of the things I was thinking in going through it is, do you practise self-compassion? You’re bloody tough on yourself. There is no alternative to running every day. There is no alternative to just getting on with it and putting your head down. You don’t kind of, it sounds like the extent of this discipline and iron will that you have served you unbelievably well. But I was thinking, “Does he give himself a break? Does he cut himself some slack?”
Well, listen, first of all, being disciplined got me through what I went through. And a lot of that I learned from my father, who was disciplined every day going to gym. Although he was also disciplined in drinking a lot, which I don’t do. But he got me into that routine. And that routine, you know, the same story, a healthy mind, healthy body will get you through, was a real motivating factor for me. My brother and I are highly, highly disciplined. We’re competitive with each other, okay? But at the same time we are all moving in one direction. So we’ll start looking at “Do I take a time out for myself?” Of course I do, but I love people. I like interacting with people, whether it’s going to swim in the sea, or I’m a great believer in clubs. So I have a coffee club, I have a walking club, we’ve got a swimming team. I mean, we’ve got 120 people hosted by two fantastic girls where we meet every day. People come at different times. And when you look at all these different people, you understand what makes them tick. The common denominator is the water. And people forget, for their 20 minutes that they’re in the water, how rich or poor they are, what their problems are or aren’t. They can identify and be with one. I mean, to reward yourself in any way, it doesn’t have to be material. You know, if you put in an effort and you see someone putting in an effort, reward that effort, even if it’s the cleaner, or the car guard and saying, “That’s a good job, well done, guys.” You know, people are so quick to judge other people because of their station, they tend to forget what’s important. Everyone is battling their own reality, okay? And just because we happen to be slightly better off doesn’t give us that right to negate other people.
So, Greg, there’s so much in what you’ve said, because the one is that you show, and I think, you know, people often think, “What did Greg Blank do to transform Krugersdorp Prison?” Such that there are these letters, unbelievable letters that were written to you by international visitors who were dreading their visit to the prison and what they might see. And I do want to say that I visited you there and there wasn’t one minute that I was there in that visit that I felt nervous. I was expecting to be, you know, really very, very vigilant. And I didn’t know what I would confront in doing the right thing, but all of this recognition, and I want to say just in light of what you said about the importance of recognition, that if you catch people doing something right, you say when they are. And people think that the transformation of the prison was the soccer, the shirts, the hair salon, the TVs, the sewing school, the brand, all of the other things that your loyal friends who had experienced your care of them in the past, and we must talk about Mrs. Airy, if you don’t mind? I want to talk about her, okay?
She was a special part of my life.
She was a part of your life, had experience. Actually, it really wasn’t all of these things, as amazing as they were. What was the underlying thing that all of this transformation really symbolised to these prisons?
Well, I think you’ve got to, when you’re in that situation, so you’re taking a privileged northern suburb Jewish guy landing up in jail. Krugersdorp at that time was the worst jail in the country. There were an average of two murders a day. And when I got there, being locked up in a cell with 78 people for almost 17, 18 hours, I tried to work out, but there’s nothing I could do about it. You were locked up, you’re a gevanginis, or a prisoner and that’s it. Keep your mouth shut, do your stuff and go forward. And I was very fortunate that I found two guys there. And I mentioned them before, they became great friends, Felix Kramer and a guy Nico Scheffer, who’s the cleverest guy I’ve ever come across. And they were struggling to get their recreation going. And Felix said, would I try and help? I said, “Well, once again, what’s in it for me?” Obviously I was ecstatic just to get out of my cell. And he said, “We need the nations, we need to do this.” I said, “Well, I can’t even get to a phone.” It took me 10 days to make a phone call. So he said, “Don’t worry, we’ll organise it for you.” And, Dori, I’ve been blessed. If I tell you, blessed with absolutely amazing friends, who without question did whatever they could. Obviously some of them were a little bit more, let’s call it under the radar, they didn’t want to be seen to be helping. But everyone without exception came to the party, donated stuff. And slowly but surely what I was doing, and please believe me, it was also a selfish attitude that I was doing because it was helping me. So by helping me, I was helping them, okay? So, the true altruist, I’m not. Dori, please believe me, okay? Those people that go to soup kitchens and help people, not of money, but their time, those are the true altruists, where they expect nothing in return.
Greg, what I’m talking about, the underlying thing was not the things that donated. You gave them what you have called, and I think that it’s been highlighted something else.
Well-
Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts.
Of course.
And that, that you gave them was recognised in these letters that were written. And I’m talking about two things. Respect-
And self-esteem.
And self-esteem.
That’s the bottom line. Once you give a person who doesn’t believe in themselves some sort of self-esteem, you’ve got them. Because that’s what life’s about. That’s why coming back, reward someone, give them, make them feel important, make them feel worthwhile. Otherwise, what’s life all about? We’re all in this merry-go-round. We are all trying to get from A to B, okay? And we’re lost in translation. Everyone is so busy, no one cares. You’ve got your family and a few friends that matter. The rest are noise. You know, people are going to do what they want. Sadly, a lot of people become expedient as you get on. The true friends that you make are the friends that you know that you can go to war with. That you know those people are going to be there, okay?
So, Greg-
Life’s not like that.
About your friend, and you said something that I just want to ask you about. You said, “Dori, I’ve been blessed with unbelievable true friends.” Now, not everyone is. And I don’t know if it’s necessarily a blessing. I would like to ask you, what do you think they would say about wanting to be friends with Greg Blank before all of this happened? Stick with you during the whole five years and be even more connected with you and loyal to you afterwards? I know you’re humble and it’s hard to say, but I want to ask you this. Because I don’t think it’s by chance.
No, no, but, obviously, when you’re in the market and things are going well, everyone wants to be your friend, regardless. An expedient friend, a disingenuous friend, but we a friend and everyone wants to know you. And even if they don’t know you, they assume they know you. When something goes wrong comes the first test, because the people that you thought were your friends, let’s take a backseat and say, “See, well, let’s see if they actually are your friends.” Before I was locked up in jail, those people were still there because I hadn’t been sentenced. But when I hit the jail and I eventually got to a phone and I’d phone those people who I’d spoken to every day and say, “Hi, it’s Greg.” I’d speak to the secretary, I’d like to speak to so-and-so. And there was silence, like, “Well, can we get back to you?” And I said, “Well, I’m not at a hotel.” You know, “There’s no return call here.” So those people in an essence wanted to be your friend, they didn’t run away, but maybe it was proper not to be your friend. So let’s assume just for a second that they remained friendly but not committed. Now you get out of jail and there’s a lot of sort of noise and a lot of press, and suddenly everyone’s your friend again. The the trick becomes, the trick really becomes, is how do you sift out all those people who really aren’t genuine? And that for me has been a great lesson in life because you can’t be everything to everybody. You know, the late Steve Jobs says, “If you want to please everyone,” okay, “be an ice cream salesman.” Okay? And I learned that because when I came out of jail, I over committed, I said, you know, “I’ve got to try and be better. I’ve got to try and do this. I’ve got to be low-key.” And after a while you sell your soul because you’re not really being yourself. And I’m very demanding, as you said, on myself, but I’m demanding on my friends. 'Cause if I give 100%, I don’t always need 100% back. I just want to see an effort. When there’s no effort being made, then I run for the hills. I mean, in the early days, we had 30 guys trading in my late father’s garden. And there were different strengths. And as long as everyone tried, from the weakest to the strongest, I gave them my full 100%, Dori. And that’s the only way I know how. I don’t know, if I do something I do it properly and I don’t do everything well, please believe me, okay? But I give 100%.
So, Greg, when you say you give that 100%, what would one see from you? Okay, you didn’t quite answer the question. You sort of very, very cleverly avoided the question of the one where you say you’re blessed with the ones that you sifted out, who have been loyal friends from start to finish and are with you on your life’s journey and you with them. You know, what would they say has made them want to be close to you and stick around?
Well, I especially avoided what you were saying. Obviously, I can’t speak for them, but any friendship to me is a two-way street. So, what you’re putting in and what they’re getting from that should be returned. So I would say-
What do you put in? What do you put in?
So, Dori, here it’s very simply you are a friend, okay? I put in effort with you, okay? By virtue of you’re going to put in effort with me. Okay, why?
Time? Is it time?
Time.
Is it interest? Is it listening?
It’s just-
Is it tell me your story? Is it listening?
It depends if you speak to my wife. She says I don’t listen, I just talk, okay? And that is a bad trait of mine because I’ve learned to be a little bit more moderate, because when I’m talking to someone, somehow I’m already in their mind and I know what they’re going to say. So, this is not a good advert for me. I tend to anticipate their answer, so I rush it. But what I have learned is to listen and understand. And once, I think, especially 'cause we are moving so fast, people, they hear you, okay? But they don’t listen. That’s why everyone wants to get their point across. You’re giving an interview, you’re getting across what you want to say. I’m interpreting what you’re telling me may be totally different to what you want to hear. If you take the time out and try and understand what the people, or the people are trying to tell you, you can do whatever you want with them. And that’s what happens, is that we don’t listen enough. And I’ve learned to become a better listener, although I’m sure I’ve still got room for improvement.
So that’s the most amazing trait, that. You know, when you have an assumption, you want the impression of the receiver to be at least the same as the expression of the sender. In other words, you want to know that they have understood you properly. So you do that. And I think that that relates to something that you also said was an absolute turning point for you when you were telling the story. There was a moment that you said this was a turning point, and it was to do with listening. And it was to do with a different way that the warder communicated with the prisoners. You said that, do you know what I’m talking about, or are you lost? I can find the quote if you want? But it was very powerful. It was something to do with, instead of just telling them what to do, there was a bit of, what do you say? Or what do you think? Do you remember that? And you said that was an absolute turning point for you when you saw the transition in the warder.
Well, listen, I don’t remember the exact what I said, but remember, sadly, that warders were seen as a job of last resort and all that warders did, okay, they came into work, went home and did their job. 90% of them took sick leave because they couldn’t handle the stress. But what I did is we made the warders feel part of a bigger family, not just doing a job. And increased their self-worth at the same time. I mean, it’s not a great job being a warder. And I think the humility of being able to address it with these guys becomes, listen, for me, it helped me a lot. But remember, I think, sadly, that’s the South African situation, where warders, firemen, policemen, they should be getting this massive, massive respect. And they don’t. People treat them as second class citizens, which is very sad.
So how did the ethic of respect sort of become quite contagious?
Because it’s a roller ball. Because once you start respecting someone, they’re going to respect you. You can’t expect a one-sided respect, and then it’s not respect, it’s fear. And remember, fear is a totally different animal than respect. I can respect you and I can fear you at the same time, but I fear you out of what you can do for me. I respect what you can do. Okay?
Right.
It’s a very fine line when you’re dealing with people who are people you’ve never come across, hey, Dori. It’s something maybe you have in your experience as a psychiatrist, but you’re dealing with people from a totally different way of thinking, walk of life. And you have to go to their level. As soon as you think that you are better than their level, that’s the end of you.
So you’ve already mentioned when you wear the same clothes and the fact that you have to deal with getting your ego out of the way. You’re talking about humanity, irrespective of what you do. You’re talking about the need for respect, the need for recognition, the need for acknowledgement, the need to be heard, whether you are a warder or a prisoner. And this was the moment that I was talking about. It says, “We talked about the turning point in prison reform at Krugersdorp. Blank thought he could pinpoint the precise moment. It was when warders stopped saying, 'you’re a prisoner, you can’t tell me what to do,’ and when they began to say, ‘Wait a sec, let me listen to you. Let’s see if perhaps you can help?’”
Yeah, well, listen, once again, I was very fortunate to have accommodating a commandant and a colonel, who it took a while for them to understand what I was doing. Remember, prison is a place of violence. Prisoners are in fear of their life and warders are in fear of their life. When you made the warders, and don’t ask me how I did it, but all I did, and I’ve grown up learning to be respectful regardless. A lot of people don’t know how to respect people. And that’s all you do. When you respect someone, they’re going to respect you back. And it doesn’t matter who or what they are. And that’s what I did with the entire sort of prison hierarchy. Because warders treated the prisoners, okay, as their enemy. Prisoners treated the warders as the enemy. When you could bring them together, to a mutually beneficial situation, that is half the battle won. I mean, we were organising games of soccer outside. We had PJ Powers came to sing. We had the late Nick, the boxer, the most fantastic guy. He came and gave boxing lessons. Jimmy Abbott came and gave wrestling lessons. The late Reg Park, we used to have bodybuilding competitions. I mean, Reg was our judge. We had Krugersdorp Health & Racquet. We made the guys feel, just better about themselves. And life became easier. That’s all.
That is, it seems to be so simple. But when you look at how so many people live their lives today, there’s diversity, there is lack of compassion or understanding. There is, you know, conflict instead of communication. You know, you talk about it as saying, honestly, I just want to say something that sounds quite simple. What about respect? What about listening to what other people, you might not agree, but that kind of respect? And I think with that, what you did is maybe not even that consciously, or I think it was conscious, you connected the prison, not only the warders and the prisoners, but the gangs, because they were, you talk about the 26s and the 28s, you know, as you talk about, and they were enemies. And at one point you say that you were in the middle of this because one group supported you, the other group wanted to kill you.
Yeah.
And you had to find a way of involvement and recognition, which made your life and everyone else’s life there much more palatable and safe.
Yeah, well, listen, Dori. As I said in the beginning, okay? When I started doing all of this, please believe me, it was me. I was trying to work the best solution for myself. How it progressed is bringing, you know, life is simple. And I know you always say it’s really not that simple. But when you see a plan in front of you, okay, and you’ve got the ability, and remember, it’s not just me. There was the whole recreation, there was the generals of the 26s, the generals of the 28s, they were sworn enemies. But what we did, we gave each of them their own level of respect. If I tried to take their power away, that would’ve been the end of me. So all we did, we empowered them. If you take that lesson, remember jail’s a microcosm of the outside world, which people don’t realise. The jail structure is run no different to a political party. You’ve got the leader, you’ve got the guys in charge, and everyone’s making decisions. And, sadly, when you look at a South African situation is that no one’s pulling in the same direction. Everyone’s saying what’s in it for me? The difference about being in jail is that you are in this confined space. And the reality is what’s in it for you is much easier to control. And, you know, the jail was a chapter in my life. I learned, I learned about people, I learned a bit more about understanding Blacks, and, sadly, I’ve said this before, is that as whites we have no idea what they trying to tell us, and what we are trying to tell them, please believe me, they have no idea. There’s that generation gap, which I think is closing now as they get more educated. But you and I, in our sort of lifetime, we’re just streets apart. And that will take education and hopefully that’ll come to the end. But when you look at political parties and political events, no different to what’s going on. Everyone’s paddling their own canoe. And what’s in it for me? And I think you’ve got to understand, and that’s why I said, the day of the true altruist doesn’t happen anymore. Those special people who can hand out blankets and spend time and doing it, they’re few and far between. And everyone, we’ve got the World Health Organisation and hunger and everything else, okay? Those are amazing people. But it’s so easy, okay, to give if you can, but try and give your time. See how many people are going to do it. And in jail, I had that time to do it. Would I have been in a different situation? I mean, I’m just as guilty, Dori, please believe me. If someone asks for a donation and I can afford it I’m happy to give. If they ask me, “Well, can I come and spend four hours handing out soup?” I’ll find an excuse, okay? And that’s just the way I am. And you can say, we are all so busy and life passes us by. The reality is, you know, it doesn’t have to.
So, Greg, if we say, okay, “it doesn’t have to,” I think that that’s very important. I mean, of course the Chinese sort of weren’t stupid when they made the same symbol for crisis as opportunity. But nobody turns around and says, “Hey, thank you, Lord, for this amazing learning opportunity that you’re giving me today.” It’s afterwards, when you look back. And what I’m wanting to say to you is what you learned, like, let’s talk about this issue of emotional blackmail as one, and getting the ego out of the way. Also what you’re saying is, I have learned that if I do what’s good for other people in terms of recognition, raising their self-esteem in some way or another, talking to them with respect, imbuing respect in them, it’s also better for me. In fact, by giving you’re also receiving. So you, I want to ask, how much are you able to continue that now? Are you maintaining the lessons and integrating them into your life? You certainly are imparting them to other people and just, we keep getting to it, What is this thing about emotional blackmail?
Well, emotional blackmail, which we, listen, I think, you, funnily enough, you pencilled that term a long time ago when I was in the stock market, okay? I was known as the “jackal.” And emotional blackmail doesn’t matter where you are. So in the jail, people had nothing, okay? I introduced TV sets, and videos, and games, and soccer boots, and whatever we did, a Black Like Me from Herman Mashaba. When you take that away, remember when someone’s got nothing to lose you can’t offer him anything. You can’t say, “Well, I’m going to shoot you, I’m going to stab you.” I said, “Well, what’s the difference?” When they’ve got something to lose and you take it away, that’s the emotional blackmail. And, sadly, you see in real life how hard it is if someone says, “Right, I’m taking your cell phone away. I’m taking your TV away. I’m going to take this away from you.” See how hard that is, and see how quickly they jump into line, okay? Being a later parent, I’m wading through ‘cause I’m strong on discipline. Sadly, times have changed. You can’t discipline your kids now like we were disciplined in the old days, you know? You did something wrong, you felt. Now, that’s all changed. So emotional blackmail is the most amazing tool, Dori. Because once you give, okay? You’ve always got that power to take it away. And it’s like a Pavlovian theory, it’s no different. But it’s the way that I got through the jail. You asked me, “Am I living my life the same?” I only know one way, and that’s always to give, try and be as humble as possible. And one thing, and I am, I’m very, very consistent. So you’ll never know if I’m up or down, which maybe is bad, okay? But I try and be consistent in what I do. You know, people don’t know how to react to bad situations. So, especially when I got the cancer, for argument’s sake. You know, you’d see people and I’m walking in the street and they’ll say, “Greg, how are you?” You know, already that forlorn face, the face goes long.
How are you, really? How are you, really?
I said, “I’m perfect.” And they say, “Are you sure?” I said, “Yeah, yeah, I’m perfect.” People can’t, they mean well, okay? But they don’t know how to handle it. That’s why coming back to the topic, it could always be worse. I mean, I was given two years to live. It’s now nine years later. But could it be worse? Guaranteed. I could be in Pinelands. The reality is no, but that’s reality, okay? Same as when someone dies, Dori. And always, it aggravates me. We lost someone. I said, “You didn’t lose anyone.” I was put out an APB. They died, or know when you get cancer, we can’t mention it.
Yeah.
Why can’t we?
So, Greg, this is interesting because you are saying, let’s be real. If someone dies, let’s say they died.
Of course.
If I have cancer, let’s say that I have cancer. You say that, okay, on the one hand, right? On the other hand, you say to us, “You’ll never know whether I’m up or down.” Now, what I want to say to you is what is bad for you or difficult for you in saying I’m really having a tough time and recognising the power and the healing power of support. You’re such a generous giver. Do you know how to receive?
I am a bad receiver, especially with gifts. But once again, I’m blessed with an amazing wife and kids, okay? And that changes your dynamic quite dramatically, okay? So once again, okay, you know, I’m not a robot. I feel emotion. I’m obviously not up every day. You have a bad day in the market. I say to Dawn, “Geez, it was a terrible day. We lost money.” But at the same time, okay, in order to win, you got to know how to lose. Imagine if we only won, imagine if we were always happy. Life would be so easy and so boring. In order to go forward, you have to understand adversity. Otherwise, there’s no compensation.
So Greg, I’m not talking about a bad day in the market. We know each other well enough that I can ask you these questions. We’re not talking about a bad day in the market. I’m talking about, “I got this diagnosis and I’m scared as hell because there’s uncertainty and I don’t know the outcome.” Is that you?
It started off like that. So, let me just, and we can run through it very quickly. Is that I woke up one morning, couldn’t wee, had the most amazing pain and called the doctor. She said, “You got cystitis.” Didn’t go away. Eventually managed to wee, blood came out, doctor said, go straight to the hospital. Went to the hospital. Unbelievable pain. I said to the doctor, 'cause you know, I’m a pseudo doctor as well, you know, “I said, I’ve got kidney stones.” He says, “Let’s rather go and have a scan.” Had the scan, he came back to me and he said, “I’ve got good and bad news.” So, I said, “Well, what’s the bad news?” He says, “The bad news, you haven’t got kidney stones.” Okay? So I said, “Well, then what’s wrong?” He said, “You’ve got a mass.” And Dawn was holding my hand at the time and I felt her hand just go limp. Okay? It was almost like when I got sentenced, I was supposed to go to the health farm and next minute I got eight years. So, you feel that, “Oh, that’s my life. I’ve got these two young kids, what am I going to do?” Okay? The guy said, “Listen, you’ve got kidney cancer, but we are going to attend to it.” “Okay.” So I said, “Well, let’s take it out.” He said, “No, you can’t take it out now, we just have to go through a process.” Anyway, four days later, most amazing doctors, I go and have my kidney taken out. In hospital for two days. I wouldn’t stay longer and I’m out. Okay, everything’s normal. I’ve had the kidney out. I’ve now become an expert in renal cell carcinoma. You only need one kidney or 20% of one kidney to survive. And that’s me, cancer’s gone. Lo and behold, 14 months later, blood test, doctor says, “Not happy with your prostate.” I said, “What do you mean you’re not happy?” He said, “It looks elevated, we want to do a biopsy.”
So I’m going through that same dreaded agony of now what? You know, you only read about guys with, you know, prostate and they’re not going to be able to perform and they’re going to wee in their pants and the wife’s going to have to look after them. You’re going to walk around in a nappy. All those fears come to the front, okay? But you can’t let that dominate you. So, went to the doctor and he said to me, “Listen, you’ve got prostate cancer, it’s not that severe. These are the options. You can have pellets, we can cut it out, or you can have radiation.” I said, “Doc, what’s your suggestion?” He said, “When you got a cancer, you cut it out.” So what happened was is that as a guy, okay, we place a lot on our male virility. Now, obviously losing, and they tell you the side effects of the prostate. Listen, you’re not going to have sex in the shower or up a lift with some girl that you happen to bump out coming out of a hotel, okay? So once again, you’ve got to learn and how to handle it. Is living more important than having immediate sex? And those are the emotions, you asked me about emotions, that you go through. But you don’t have an alternative. The alternative is, “Guys, I don’t treat it. I’m having great sex, but I’ll be dead in two years.” These are all a learning curve. And once again, like, and you’ve correctly pointed it out, I compartmentalised that cancer. Had it out, wasn’t weeing in my pants, didn’t have to walk around with a nappy. I was doing my Kegel exercises before, okay? Almost like before I went to jail, I locked myself in the room for 24 hours to try and prepare myself. That’s the way I handle adversity. But it’s not for everyone. Dori, please believe me, I speak to people every day with the cancer, okay? I try and help them. And people say, “Well, what did you do? What can we do?” And you can’t, you know, because it works for me it doesn’t mean it’s going to work for them, you know? So you can only be empathetic towards everyone and give a friendly ear.
So, and that’s what you do. So, Greg, I just want to say, because there might be some questions, that I just want to say that we need to refer to the heart of Greg Blank as well. Because that you displayed long before this happened to you. When I said towards the beginning, “What about Mrs. Airy?” So there were lots of “Mrs. Airy’s,” but there was a lady, a Mrs. Aronsohn, that Greg used to see and visit very, very regularly. She never gave you anything in terms of money. There was not any ulterior motive. Right now, I know that there is a very elderly man who looks forward to seeing you very, very often. That care and that big heart that you have was there, was an important part of who you are, of your DNA, came to the fore during the huge challenge of being in prison. And is still there afterwards. You talk about it as if it’s sort of just mainstream for everybody, but it isn’t. And you didn’t quite answer the question about why do we stick around with him? And I think that part of the answer is that the time, the care, the compassion, the interest, the listening, the availability, the how are you? That has always been a part of you and I think was an incredible part in that whole transformation of the prison. Just to end, Greg, I would like to say, if you could say what you’ve learned that you want other people to know without going through the same experience that you went through, what would you say?
Well, I think the most important thing is that it doesn’t take a bad experience in order to change the way that you think. And coming back to the title, “It Could Always Be Worse,” Although it sounds so simple, is very prophetic, because people don’t think it can be worse. Okay? Focus on what you have, not what you don’t, okay? Focus on what you can change, not that you can’t. And a lot of people look at stuff that is way beyond, way beyond their encompassment to change anything. And they struggle, “Well, I can’t do it, and how am I going to do it?” And they wonder about it. For me, I keep it very, very simple. And that that’s the way I get through. Focus what I can change, worry about what I can change. Don’t worry about stuff you can’t, because that’s not your business, okay? Be kind, okay? Be humble and listen. And it’s not that difficult. People make life difficult, okay? We don’t realise, and I’m talking about we are pretty fortunate how real lucky we are when you think about what’s going on around the world and in South Africa. And that’s why I say to you, it could always, always be worse. Just be true to yourself. It’s so easy to say “good morning, you look good, thank you.” Ask the waiter their names, okay? Little things, okay? Changes the dynamic. I learned from a rabbi a long time ago. He said, “To be a good Jew, be a good person.” And I’ve tried to be a good person. The judge didn’t think so, but that’s the way that I get through life, okay? Try and be the best person that I can the whole time and it gets tiring sometimes.
Self-compassion. Greg Blank, thank you so, so much. I think that we all, it was a horrible way to learn, right? The profound wisdom that you have extracted from that experience and shared with all of us is just, we’re so grateful for it and thank you.
Maybe I needed it. Thanks to you, thanks to Wendy and the “Lockup University?”
“Lockdown.”
“Lockdown.”
Oh, “Lockdown” “Lockdown University.”
“Lockdown.” Oh, I just want to jump in and just say, Greg, honestly, thank you so much for sharing both what was a more public, but also a very private experience. For being honest and open and candidly sharing your insights and what you learned from your different experiences. I must say I echo many of what you’ve said. Having gone through certain challenges myself, absolutely what you say, you know, we are all equal. I always say to my kids, “You come in alone, we go out alone.” And whoever walks with you is a great gift and a great blessing and value that. We are all equal. And, you know, you smile at somebody, you make them feel good. And, yeah, appreciated and valued. And, so thank you very, very much. It really was a very special moment. You do bring the sunshine, the optimism and the can-do. I have to say, it’s always lovely being around you. I’m always so happy to see you. And, Dori, thank you very, very much for this. This really fabulous interview. And, you know, I just felt like really, I don’t feel like I’m in Europe and you’re so far away in South Africa. It’s almost like we are back together again.
Well, hopefully we’ll see you soon.
Please, God, yes. So I wish you good health.
Thank you.
Okay. And only, you know, onwards and forwards.
Only way I know how.
My friend once said to me, “onwards and upwards.” I said, “Oh, not too high!”
Greg, I’ve just got to end by you reminded me of the alcoholic’s prayer, where you said something like, “Give me the courage to change the things I can.” The something “to accept the things I can’t and the wisdom to know the difference.”
Exactly.
Yeah.
Listen, I didn’t realise I was plagiarising the alcoholic prayer, but, I mean, that’s the way that I get through what I have to get through, good or bad.
That’s great.
Happy to address this. Thanks so much for your time.
Thank you.
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you very much.
Thanks, Dee.