Ali Bacher
Ali Bacher: From Cricket Captain of South Africa During Apartheid to Pioneer of Non-racial Cricket
Ali Bacher - From Cricket Captain of South Africa During Apartheid to Pioneer of Non-racial Cricket
- Okay, I’m sure most people, every South African knows you as the great Ali Bacher, who was Springbok cricket captain. Ali was born in Johannesburg, I’m not going to tell you the year, and is an administrator of the United Cricket Board of South Africa. He was born to Lithuanian-Jewish parents. Oh, I remember them so well. Your mom Rose, and-
My mom was from Poland.
Oh, your mom was from Poland. Okay, your dad from Lithuania, your mom from Poland. She was such a character. They immigrated to South Africa and he got his nickname Ali at age of seven from Alibaba. Ali married Shira Teeger, and they have two daughters and one son. Ali started playing cricket while at school and represented Transvaal at the age of 17. He played in 12 tests for South Africa, three against England and nine against Australia. He was captain in the last four. He studied at the University of Wits, and as you know, became a doctor. His greatest legacy is that of a cricket administrator who organised the international rebel tours in the early 1980s while South Africa was isolated from the rest of the cricketing world due to sanctions imposed due to the apartheid regime. But Ali saw the post-Mandela writing on the wall and reinvented himself as South Africa’s Cricket Supremo when the previously separate black and white associations combined to set up the United Cricket Board. Bacher’s reward, Ali’s reward came when his country marched back onto the international scene at the 1991 World Cup. He remained at the helm for the best part of a decade before stepping aside to lead the organisation of the 2003 Cricket World Cup. Today his talk is titled, Captain of South Africa during apartheid to pioneer of non-racial Cricket. Ali’s story, you’re in for such a treat, Ali’s stories are immense, and you really have had the most incredibly, interesting life, Ali, and we’re so looking forward to hearing. I just want to tell you that tomorrow I’m having Taddy here, Taddy Blecher, and we are going to talk about one of your recent passions. So, now I’m going to hand over to you and to Dennis, and we’re looking forward to your presentation. Thanks a million for joining us. Much, much appreciated.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Okay, well, let me say, Ali, this is a shared delight for me, because as I indicated to you before we began, I used to watch you with great apprehension supporting Western province at Newlands when you came down as the Transvaal cricket captain. And inevitably you beat us, which was very depressing. But I perhaps let me start with, what I’ve always found interesting about you, I mean, Wendy’s given sort of a broad biographical background that you actually, I mean, your career started incredibly young. I mean, you played for Transvaal when you were 17. And I think if I’m right, you captained the side roundabout what? You were just over 20, 23 I think.
Nah, I was 21.
21, so I’m just fascinated, I mean obviously, you know, you were a leader, but what was it like as sort of a young Jewish guy, captaining, obviously experienced Transvaal side at that point, did it pose its own challenges for you?
Look, you know, I had a long association with Balfour Park.
Yeah.
Why Balfour Park? Although, I never played for Old Edwardians. The reason being on my mother’s side, her brother was Aaron Nickel, and he was captain of Balfour Park in the Premier League. In the early ‘50s he played a few games for Transvaal. In fact, one game against Rhodesia, the late Eric Rowan was captain and he took seven wickets. And then his younger brother, I called him Yodel Nickel, although others call him Julias Nickel. There was sport on his side too. When he was 14 he was selected for South African under-14 soccer team. So, this was all on my mom’s side. My late dad, you know, he came when he was early teens from Lithuania, no education, couldn’t go to high school, had to go and work, built up a good business. And his whole interest was in horses, horse riding. So, that was the one side of the family. But on my mom’s side it was just sport, sport, sport. And I mean, I remember when I was four or five, I mean, I heard about Don Bradman, the 1949 Australians came to Ellis Park, and my late uncle Julias Nickel took me there. I can remember sitting on the open stand, I was a kid, and spending all day watching the famous Australians played cricket. So, Bradman was my hero. I mean, I started reading his books about his achievements and you know, he’s batting average at test level was 99.4.
Yeah.
And the second best is our own Graeme Pollock at about 61.
Yeah.
So, he was a freak. And one of the best moments I’ve ever had in my life that on the way to the World Cup in 1992, and I used to communicate with him nicely. He asked me to spend a night with him in Adelaide. So, my wife and myself, Shira, we got off, we spent the night with him, and he was unbelievable. As the taxi came up to the double story house, he was waiting for us. He opened the door, went to Shira, opened the door, took us out. And the remarkable thing that he spent about an hour and a half with me talking about South African cricket, although he never toured South Africa. The team came in about '35 and he was ill, but he had a lot of friends here. And I was mesmerised by his knowledge of South African cricket. He just knew everything. I mean, he was a freak. And I think it was worth telling that, ugh, about 10 years ago, I think in the “New York Times,” they had a big article page on going through all the sports, the heroes, the greats, Maradona, the soccer giant, this tennis giant. And they came to the conclusion that he was the greatest sportsman of all time, because his test average was 99.4. And then 61, and the others were close. You know, some said Pele, some said Maradona, somebody said the Dutch player. But there was no discussion. He was the greatest sportsman of all time. And it was an honour-
Was that a big kind of inspiration for you as you were growing up with Kez?
I read his books, man, I read, you know, he was such a maestro, he was a genius. I mean, he went to England in 1930 and he had an unorthodox technique. He played across the line. And they all said in England, “Listen, we’ll sort him out. No problem.” So, the first test match was at Leeds. And day one, in a day’s play he got 320 not out. So, Dennis, if you and I got 320 not out in a test match, I don’t think I’d go to bed at eight o'clock in the evening. Which he did, he did.
Yeah.
And it caused a lot of resentment, because he became such a big, big name that wherever the Australian cricket team went in the 30s and after the Second World War to England, 1948, everybody just wanted Donald Bradman. And you know, you had the late Jack Fingleton, Bill O'Reilly, great Australian cricketers, who then became writers. And it’s common knowledge that they couldn’t stand him, because I think there might have been other reasons, but the whole world of cricket just focus on Don Bradburn. He was a freak.
Now, I want to just focus on you for a moment, if I may. What I wanted to ask you was, you go to England for the first time as a test cricket in '65?
Correct.
That was really quite a tour in the sense that you guys came home victorious, if I recall correctly? You won a test, which basically was-
We won the second test at Nottingham.
Yeah.
I got a few runs in the first innings. I’ve got about 57 in the second, Graeme got a 100. He reckons it’s probably his best ever test, knock, I’m not so sure. He got a 50 in the second innings. And Peter Pollock got 10 wickets, five and five. And to give an example of how things have changed, particularly with the media, I mean, when we went on this particular tour, we had the late Charles Fortune.
Ah, yes, of course.
We Called him Spiekeries, Afrikaans commentator. And there were two journalists, newspapers, and that was it. And I’m going to tell you the story that after we won the test match, the late Colin Bland said, “Chaps, we got to celebrate.” We said, “What are we going to do?” So, he said, “Follow me.” So, most of the players in their underwear went onto the main pitch. Can you believe that happening today? And I can’t recall, I was one of them. But that’s how we celebrated. I mean, can you imagine today what would have happened with the media to witness this wave of celebration? So, we won that test, we won that test match. The first test match, that was my first test match at Lord’s. And you know, normally I think I’ve got good nerves, I can withstand pressure. But just playing at Lord’s that first day, I was a wreck. My nerves went to pieces and just the history of the ground, et cetera, et cetera. So, I went in to bat and I think I got four and I got 37 in the second innings, and we, for four days we were getting knocked out, we were getting beaten. And then what happens in this great game of cricket that on day five, we know we scratched together a few runs and we left them about 170 to win the test. Hot day, easy pie. And you know what, they were about 130 for 7. And the first time that night when we drove to Kent, we realised we could beat them. We could beat them. And the next day we played Kent. And Peter Pollock got the late Colin Cowdrey out twice for two ducks. I had 70, and not for the first time Graeme Pollock ran people out by the 22 yards to make sure he-
Yeah, he was brilliant at that, yeah.
To make sure he had all the bowlers, I didn’t mind. And he got a double century and we beat them in two days. And you know, from then on we just grew and grew and grew in confidence.
And then you return in '66-
Yeah.
You make a very famous double century. And you also have a very famous, I think we had five catches, but you had a famous catch of Kalpa, if I’m correct?
Correct, yeah.
Now, in those days people didn’t catch the way they do today, so it was absolutely remarkable. I mean, that really heralded you as a star within the firm and that double century.
Well look, you know, I was then in, let’s see, fourth year medical school. So, the Australians were coming, and I remembered lunchtime I used to go down to the Wits rugby field and do a bit of training to get fit for this particular series. And we played the Australians, I think it was in November. And it was a great game of cricket. I mean, the runs flowed. And the interesting part that Bob Cowper the previous year in Melbourne against England, scored a treble century.
That’s right, yeah.
He came out to bat and the late Atholl McKinnon was bowling from the golf course site. And I was at Silliman on, and he bowled a short ball and Bob Cowper just smacked it. I don’t know how I caught with my left hand, it knocked me over and I held onto the ball. So, we eventually beat them. We became the first South African team ever to beat an Australia team in Australia. But the interesting part that Bob Cowper never made a run on that tour, we got rid of him for Transvaal, and that was the end of him. But we won that series three, one, which was a historic moment for South African cricket.
And what I, just moving away from cricket for a second, what amazed me was that by '67 you get your MBChB. I mean, it’s unheard of today. Nobody studies medicine, becomes a top flight cricketer.
Look, let me be frank. I mean, when I left King Edwards, you know, and I was captaining the cricket team in matric, I just wanted to play cricket. And my late father, he taught me one thing about the Great Depression in the '30s. And he said, “You better have a profession, 'cause there are tough times, you’re going to be in trouble.” So, I put out all the professions, law, my English wasn’t so good. Accountancy, I didn’t like figures, and I left at the end medicine. So, I enrolled as a medical student. And the first part of it I hated it. I mean, I don’t think my late parents know that in first year I missed a couple exams, because I was playing for Transvaal against Rhodesia in Bulawayo. So, obviously I didn’t succeed. I mean, you couldn’t write exams from the cricket field in Bulawayo. But you know, something said to me, “Just hang in, hang in, hang in.” But I hated those early days. But you know, when I got to fourth year, I realised I’d made the right decision, because I think my life, and people know me, I like to communicate with people, talk to people, help them as best I can. And then when I got to the wards in fourth year, I realised I had made the right decision.
Okay.
But there was another problem. So, I’m in fourth year and at the old General Hospital and the head of our ward told the registrar to take blood from all the fourth year students. Why? He was going to do an analysis of the effect of the thyroid hormone on cholesterol fat metabolism. So, that was the first day that I came back from that England tour. So, I come back three or four days later, everybody’s around me. I said, “What’s the problem?” So, at that time, cholesterol, the upper limit of normal was 6.5. Today it’s five, mine was 13. And what happened then is that I, through my dad’s side, on that side, I picked up the gene of high hereditary cholesterol. And I’ve had treatment ever since 1965, even to this day, even to this day. And my family, quite a few members have got that gene as well. But fortunately today there’s such wonderful medication that, you know, I’m 82 and I walk every day. So, you know, I’m a lucky person. Very, very lucky person.
Ali, but just on that, so you get your MB, I mean, can I just ask about that? I mean, you’re a famous cricketer by then, you know, not every fourth year medical students actually played for South Africa and played at Lord’s. Did patients realise who you were?
You know, do I call you justice, judge? I had this big worry today.
No.
What I call you.
You call me Dennis, for God’s sake. Otherwise I’ve got to call you Dr. Bacher.
No, look, you know, my whole life, and I’m fortunate about it. You know, I take day by day I think of the next day. I don’t go through my past. I don’t want to do that, I never do that. But where I’ve made mistakes, and I’ve made mistakes, I’ve tried to learn from them. But you know, the past is the past. I don’t live in like that. I mean, unfortunately, some of my colleagues who, you know, played international sport, they still live in the pro. It doesn’t work like that.
Yeah, yeah.
It’s unfortunate like that. And so I go day by day and as I said to you, I’ve got great specialist doctors. The man upstairs looked after me. And you know, with my medical history, I’m going to be 82. And I just feel great. I’m very, very fortunate.
Can I then just move on to your, to the 1970 tour. There was of course great controversy about who, well, not great, there was some controversy about who should be the captain between you and Eddie Barlow. You became the captain. Remarkably you won the toss in all four tests. Must have had quite a lot of muzzle in relation to that. Many people think that’s the greatest South African side ever.
Well, I’ll give you the following. Peter Pollock remains a very close friend of mine. We’ve always been very close. And a long time ago he phoned me, he said, “Ali, you know what?” “What’s happened?” I said. He said, “I’ve just read a book by some well-known cricket writer and he’s chosen the best 10 teams of all time. And our '70 team is one of them.” So, I said, “Fine, thank you very much.” But I don’t think so. I think, I wouldn’t say the best team, but the best achievement was in 2008 by Graeme Smith’s team. 'cause they went to England, and they won that series two, one. They went to Australia the same year, and they beat Australia. No South African test cricket team has ever done anything like that. So, are they the best team? I’ll let the pundits work that, whatever, but from the best achievement, there can be no doubt in my mind, this was the 2008 South African cricket team.
But if I could just ask this about that, not about the part. Well, I suppose it’s something I’ve always wanted to ask. I mean, we can debate to you the best was, and I accept what you say, I watched that 2008 side, you were brilliant. I think your side was too. The point I’m making is, you guys had your careers cut short then, that was it. And I just wonder, I mean, how did you relate to that at the time? Was it just, I mean, you understood what was going on. I mean, it must have been extraordinary frustrating for such talented people to have been denied.
I, you know, we were 1971, 4, nil, if there’d been a fifth test match in Paul, it would have been five, nil,
Yeah.
We were due to go to England. I was a captain, but the labour government were in power, Harold Wilson. And I knew we’re not going to get to England, I knew that. And that’s how it turned out to be. So, for me, it was easy because I was a medical doctor, I had a profession. I just got on with my life. I wasn’t going to mope around that, that’s life. So, I had medicine to keep it going, which I enjoyed and trying to help people. And then in '19, '18, '17, let’s see, we were due to go to Australia, let’s see what year that’d be.
Yeah, that was around the same time, yeah.
Yeah, about 3, 2, 3 years later. And the head of the Trade Unions was Bob Hawke. And he made it clear, “South African Airways, if you come to Perth, that’s it. We won’t put petrol in.” So, I knew that too was over too, and as it turned out to be. But the interesting part is that I became very good friends with Bob Hawke. It’s a long story, house-
Is that later, later?
Later, so that when Australia came back to South Africa for the resumption of test cricket against South Africa, I invited him to come to the Wanderers Cricket Stadium for a opening ceremony, et cetera, et cetera. And we became very good friends. He made a most brilliant address, you know, heartened about the return of South Africa to international cricket.
And just out of interest then, I mean, obviously you retire in 1974 and it’s perfectly understandable. Then at some point you leave medical practise and you move into cricket administration. And what I’m particularly interested in talking to you about is, I mean, you are very critical, in a way saving cricket under difficult circumstances whereby no one was prepared to play with us internationally. And one had to have some kind of competition at that time. And it’s all very well judging this with the benefit of hindsight. But at that moment that must have seemed right to you that that was the only way we could survive.
Look, it’s, the sequence is very simple. In the '70s Geoff Dakin, Joe Pamensky and myself would go on an annual visit to England. ICC would have all their members there. The English people were the only people that would meet with us. The Australians didn’t want to know us. And you know, they kept on saying, “Listen, hang in, hang in, hang in. Times will change.” And then in 1979, the late Dug Insole with whom I had a lot of respect for, he said to the three of us, “Listen, chaps, we’d love to play you, but if we play you, West Indies, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, not only will they not tour your country, but their players were not allowed to be playing county cricket.” And Doug said, “Listen, that’s it. Until Apartheid’s gone, you’re on your own.” And I, in hindsight, I made a wrong assessment. I believed then that Apartheid was here for the rest of my life.
Well, it’s not an assessment, if I can just interrupt you. It’s an assessment most of us of our generation made at that time as well.
So, in 1981 I have my first bypass heart operation. And my great friend Don Mackay-Coghill, who used to be at the Chamber of Mines, he was my vice chairman, I was chairman. And whilst I was in hospital, he had a clandestine meeting with the board. And Cogs came to me at the J.G. Strijdom Hospital and said, “Ali, listen, we want you to become a full-time cricket administrator, full-time. And that’s how it started. I mean, he opened the door for me. He’s now in Perth and he’s remained one of my closest friends. So, in '81, after I left hospital, I went to become the Transvaal cricket full-time administrator. I think I was probably the first full-time sports administrator in this country. And I had it 'till 1986. And that was a time when Clive Rice had his unbelievable cricket team, I mean, they could have played any test and they were so good. And then in 1986, Cogs, who was now on the National Board said to him, "Listen, you know, it’s going to hurt us, but I think Ali must come national.” So, he got support for me to become the national CEO of South African Cricket. But going back to the rebel tours, the first two tours I had nothing to do with.
That was against Sri Lanka and Graham Gooch’s team. That was Joe Pamensky. I had nothing to do with that. And then I saw the possibilities, but also taking cognizant fact that I thought Apartheid was there for life. And I wanted to bring out the West Indies players who we never played against. I mean, I played test cricket against England, Australia, New Zealand, they were all white players. I toured England '65, played most of the counties. I hardly saw a black player. And I had this notion that I want to bring out the West Indies to play. So, we couldn’t get all of them. We got some of the good ones, Sylvester Clarke, he was lethal, et cetera, et cetera. And they came out and they had a different form of playing cricket, calypso cricket. They were energetic, full of fun for a life. But one of my main reasons was I was hoping that by their presence in South Africa, they would inspire the black kids in the townships to take to cricket. Because leave out the Eastern Cape and Western Province, up here where I am, cricket is hardly being played in the townships. And that is my hope that they, you know, they would get inspired. But what happened very quickly, I’m told by these West Indies cricketers that a lot of the blacks in the townships warned them, “If you come into the township, you’re looking for trouble.” So, it didn’t work, it didn’t work, unfortunately. But that was one of my main reasons why I wanted them to come to South Africa.
When, just out of interest, did you start township cricket programmes? Mini cricket and that, was that later?
It started in '86. And now, let me tell you what happened there. The only time that I’ve been anxious about the future of this country was in 1986. Then as you can remember, all the horrific killings in the townships. And I dunno, just on a blind impulse I called to my office three or four people, white, black. And I said, “Listen, we’ve got to try to do something. We can’t just sit back here.” So, we went into the Elka Stadium Soweto, and we drove and we got lost in the centre of Soweto. And you could see the blacks looking there, “What the hell are these white doing in Soweto?” Anyhow, so we went there and we had a 1,000 kids, man, 'cause we’d advertise and we got them free oranges. And after about three Saturday mornings I woke up, I said, “Listen, who said these kids can’t play cricket? It’s rubbish. Not all of them, but every now and then I could see a kid had rhythm and coordination. So, I went back home and I phoned a very dear friend of mine, Mervyn King, and I said, "Mervyn, listen, I’ve seen something here. I’m telling you this, we need to support it, get money, sponsor it, get around the country.” And Mervyn, myself, and Mervyn to his credit, he arranged a lot of lunches, one a week, the business community, the legal community, this community. And we raised close to a million rand.
A lot of money there.
We paid for the spread of the cricket around the country. We never used cricket coffers money. That was Mervyn and myself, and thank God it paid off. That’s how it started.
I’m going to come back to that, if I may, but I just wanted to, since time is rushing, the last of the rebel tours was the Gatting tour.
Nearly finished me off.
Yeah, I mean, but you, is that because you misjudged what was going on in the country at that time?
No, I knew there was problems, because the other tours went peacefully, because if anybody black tried to demonstrate, they would have ended up in jail.
Yeah.
So, I was in England seeing my sister in the northern part of England, just when F. W. de Klerk for the first time allowed a peaceful demonstration in Cape Town under Winnie Mandela. And I was at my sister’s home in the north of England and I watched it on TV and I said to myself, “You’ve got problems here.” I knew it. I knew there’s going to be problems. And how to get out of it, it was almost impossible, 'cause those players had signed contracts. The England Cricket Board had suspended them for three, five years. If there was a way that I could have got out of it, 'cause I knew what was going to happen. And so it turned out, because, you know, the first game was in Kimberly, you’ll enjoy this. So, the first day I go to the ground outside and the demonstrators come, they want to see me in the main street. So, I get in a car and I go there, the police are there with their rifles pointed to these demonstrators, and there’s thousands, hundred demonstrators. And I told the police, “Are you bloody mad? Put your bloody guns away.” So, I thought I needed help. So, I got left into a house and a white South African opens the door and he recognises me. And you know what he says to me, “How’s Hugh Tayfield?” So, I’ve got this , and he said, “How’s Hugh Tayfield?” So, I got on the phone and Hugh helped me. He became a good friend of mine. He was a Deputy Minister of Law, Roelf Meyer.
Yes.
I’ve met Roelf before that. And I liked him, he liked me.
He’s a very decent man.
I phoned him, I phoned him. I said, “Roelf, what do I do here?” He says, “Ali, you do the following.” So, I went to the city headquarters of Kimberley. I asked to see the CEO or the mayor, and I applied on behalf of the demonstrators for them to come to the ground on the second day and demonstrate all day, which I did. And I still got that letter.
That’s extraordinary.
So, that was Roelf Meyer. I mean, I didn’t know what to do, but he saved the day for me. But that tour, it just got worse and worse. And then the third game was in Maritzburg. Mike Gatting, myself, we were quite happy to talk to the demonstrators in the ground, but we got sucked outside the ground, and there were hundreds and thousands of demonstrators. I thought they’d kill Mike Gatting. I thought they’d kill him. Anyhow, we got through that hurdle, and then we came to Johannesburg and it was a game on the Saturday morning, day one. And I knew there’s trouble. So, at seven o'clock in the morning I went to my office. I dunno what I’m going to do here, I know there’s trouble. And Michael Katz phones me, who’s been a good friend of mine for 40, 50 years. And he says, “Look Ali, there’s a delegation of white business people, mainly Afrikaners, in England, meeting with Thabo Mbeki.” And Thabo has said, “Listen, please get a message through to Ali that Mandela’s going to be released on Tuesday, Wednesday. We don’t want fires around the country when he’s released.” So, that started a process which ended up on the Sunday night at Michael’s house with one of the National Sports Congress senior delegates. And we came to an understanding, a shortened tour, cancel the second leg, et cetera, et cetera. And it worked, and it worked. The issue here is that my white board, I mean, they just didn’t want to know me. So, I was on my own for three months, and you know, people tell you I’m a pretty positive person, for three months I lost my confidence. I used to go to the office at the Wanderers Club, lunchtime go home, pull the plug out, lie in my couch, my family would come to support me.
It went on for three months. And then it was a Wednesday night, I’m at my home and I get a phone call 10:30 in the evening from Frederik van Zyl Slabbert, friend of mine. He says, “Ali, on Friday I want you to go down to East London. I want you to go Mdantsane, and I want you to go see Steve Tshwete.” And I said, “Who’s he?” So, I went down, Robbie Mansell, a great friend of mine, he got his driver, wife. I went into the township the Friday night, we got directions and Steve went to see his late father. And then he walked in, this big chap, thick rimmed glasses. So, we shake hands and now we’re going to talk. So, I’m on a couch which kind of falls to the floor and he’s a big chap on a hard rock chair. So, he’s looking down at me. So, I dunno what I said for 45 minutes, I dunno. But I was pleading for, I suppose my life and cricket’s life. And I stopped, and Dennis, you won’t believe it, he put out his hand to me, he said, “Ali, I’m going to help you.” And he never stopped helping me, he saved me, Steve Tshwete, saved me, because the National Sports Congress, they saw Steve supporting me, that was it. And we became close friends. We went to England twice, went to Australia with him, went to New Zealand with him. my kids’ weddings he came to, Friday nights, often came to me. He was a great individual and I just want to express to you, you know, what a thinker he was. Thabo told him to take me to the black countries in the UK where cricket is played. So, we went to Guyana, the High Commission, and we walked in and I see a picture of Fidel Castro and I say to him, I said, “Listen, we’re not going to win on this one.”
So, the High Commissioner said to Steve, “Steve, listen, you asked us to isolate South Africa in Sport, we’ve done it. Why do you want to reverse it now?” And hear what he said, he said, “Listen, what’s happening in South African Sport, it’s now like a young embryo. If you give it oxygen, it’ll grow and mature. If you take it away, it’ll die. We want you to give him oxygen.” And that was it. And- In relation to that, I mean, Tshwete, who I knew reasonably well myself. I can understand everything you said about him. Did you guys, as you discussed this, did you have a game plan? Because if I look at the South African side that is about to play in the World Cup, there are whole, I mean, we’re a captain, a captain by a black South African, Bavuma, in test cricket now. I mean, we’ve got, you know, our fast bowling attack is essentially, the two key bowlers are black players. We’ve got to the point where it’s not so much about quotas anymore, it’s just that you’ve managed through this whole process to get to a point where we now are a national side. Everybody identifies with it.
Absolutely, absolutely.
Was that your game plan? I mean- Yeah look, I would like to, I think where I’d like better progress, the coloured community are well versed now, part of every structure in South Africa, and on the playing field, the Indians are doing well, very well. I’d like to see still more progress amongst the Africans.
Yeah.
At administrative level and on the playing field. And I’m not sure, there is a drive that I had in the ‘90s with a lot of my people, black and white. We were in the townships regularly driving cricket there. I dunno what happens in the Eastern cape and western PRAs. But I know up here in the black townships, I know very well that our senior players are not seen there. And if there’s one thing I’ll say about Hansie Cronje, when he was captain, if they had a big match in Joburg and there were two days rest, I’d say, “Hansie, I want you and the team into the township.” He never said, “No,” I don’t think that’s happening now. And I think that is a reason why we’re not getting more Makhaya Ntinis coming through. I mean, I interviewed Makhaya Ntini near where he was born. I mean, it is the most rural, rural area, you can’t imagine. He was 14 and they sent a coach to see if there’s any talent in that area. And evidently he came to this cricket net with his sister’s sandals. He was 14, he’d never bowled a ball. And he bowled two balls. And Raymond Boyd, he’s still the coach there, speaking regularly. He phoned one of the senior white officials, he said, “I’ve just seen gold.” And how right he was.
But are you saying, I mean, obviously we’ve got Ngidi and Rabada now, but I mean, Rabada seemed to have gone to a very upmarket school. Are we talking about the fact that we aren’t attracting more working class black kids into the game?
Look, Ngidi ended up at Hilton High School. That’s what I’m saying.
There was some philanthropists, dunno how he got there. So, he had a proper cricket upbringing. The other one, a doctor, Rabada, he’s from, what’s the school up north? Probably private schools. They’ve never been disadvantaged. The point here to me is in the black townships, and I keep on trying to tell people, “Listen, when I was at King Edwards, I had practised Monday afternoon, Thursday afternoon, Wednesday afternoon, match, Saturday, all day match, Sunday I played for Balfour Park. I say in the township at the moment, at the best you can get is a cricket on a Saturday morning. It’s going to be impossible for blacks in the township to stay there, to make it in cricket. You can’t. So, what I try and tell people, "Listen, go into the townships and when you can see somebody with talent, grab him, send him to King Edwards, send him to Jeppe High School, and give him a chance in life.” And I don’t think that’s happening.
Why, I mean, what you say sounds not just right, obviously great. Why is that not happening?
It’s like anything in life, it’s leadership, it’s leadership, it’s got to come from the top.
Come from the top.
Yeah, that’s what, yeah.
That’s got to come from the top. And Dennis, it wasn’t only me. I had some unbelievable people. I had an Afrikaans woman from Kagiso Township that in the late '80s she would go into Kagiso in a bakkie, collect her cricket team, they all knew her. Go and play a match somewhere, and bring them home. And the people knew her and they loved her, unbelievable woman. So, we had people like that, that were passionate about cricket. I don’t think you see it to the same extent today up here. I don’t want to talk about Eastern Cape and Western Province. That’s not my domain. But it said, I think in Northern Transvaal, Pretoria area, I think the administration’s trying to, you know, do some good in the townships, which I think is very good. But just generally speaking, I mean, I don’t see a national team, you know, they’re playing India here, January the '70s, a one day match, you’d think two or three days before they’d go into the township, high profile, get TV there, get sponsors there, get the people involved. I’m pretty certain it’s not happening.
There is an anomaly, when you were around, and I’m not flattering you. It is true in the '90s, cricket seemed to be moving in the right direction. Rugby was stagnant. Now it seems the opposite way around. If you look at the rugby side now, it’s extraordinary.
Unbelievable, unbelievable.
Affected South African Nation.
Absolutely. I mean, I can tell you the story, which is a year and a half ago, two years ago, a few of my family, we went to a little place north of Pretoria, little place, a small game park, nothing great. And the Saturday afternoon the Springboks were playing in a rugby match. So, there were my little family. And then there were just Afrikaners, and we clobbered this team. And every time one of our blacks called a try, I looked around these Afrikaners were jumping up with joy. You couldn’t believe it. Rugby’s done a damn good job, you got to give them bloody credit for that, no question about that.
But can I just ask you just on a more broader level, because you were sent, I mean, you were very influential internationally, I mean in cricket, is it, there is a constant complaint now that India and to a less extent England and Australia dominate the whole damn thing. And they’re-
They’re controlling world cricket, they’re controlling world cricket. I can remember again in the early '90s, all the '90s representing South Africa with Krish Mackerdhuj to ICC meetings. The representatives from India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka came to meetings, never said a word. I mean, it was Australia, England, South Africa, West Indies dictating events. Today it’s changed. And why has it changed? Because India control 70% of the cricket in world cricket. 70% of the revenue come from playing for against India. And I can recall in the '90s, when I got India to come here for a proper tour for test matches, we made enough money on that tour sending the television rights into India to cover four years of cricket at all levels, one tour. India control world cricket, it’s as simple as that. It’s all about money.
And what does that mean now for cricket?
Well, it’s problematic because, and I’ve gone public on it. I mean, we play in India at the end of the year, just two test matches. I think a year later there’s another test match, two test matches, we’re off the radar. We’re off the radar. And these teams are playing each other four test series, five test series, big TV money, big crowds. And you know, it’s a serious problem. I mean, I’ve even gone public, if I was part of that scene there, I’d get Pakistan and all the other countries together and say, “Listen, if you, we don’t have a fair deal with this, we’re not going to play you. You can play on your own.” Put pressure then. But it hasn’t happened on anything like that.
I hesitate to ask you about this notes. You raised it, only one question about it. Did it take a long time to recover from the Hansie Cronje affair?
Oh, oh, you know, when I think back, you know, it was a Friday afternoon. Do you remember a very well-known woman sports writer, Bronwyn Wilkinson?
Yes.
She was very good. She worked for me and she came into my office in the front and said, “Look, Ali, there’s a story from India, Hansie bookmakers, whatever.” I said, “Bronwyn, it’s rubbish, leave it.” But it kept on coming. And I remember on the Saturday morning I phoned Hansie, and I said, “Hansie, listen, you got to come up here. We’ll have a press conference and we’ve got to kill this.” He said, “Doc, I can’t, it’s my wife’s birthday.” Okay, so, we were due to play on the Wednesday a One Day International against Australia at Kingsmead. So, I arranged a press conference on the Sunday night, and a lot of people who watched that press conference had a look at Hansie and say, “Look, there’s something wrong, not right here. He’s not the same person.” Anyhow, I gave him the benefit, you know, of that outcome. So, on the Monday I invited the CEO and Chairman of Australian cricket to come here. Look, we had a couple of rounds with them, you know, they thought they could control world cricket and we stood our ground. But anyhow, so I phoned them, I said, “Listen, come over, let’s sort out our problems.” So, on the Monday we went to a private game park up north in KwaZulu-Natal and had a nice braai. And then at three o'clock in the evening I get a phone call. It was the manager, Goolam Rajah, “Hansie wants to speak to you.” And all he said to me, “Doc, I’m sorry, I haven’t been honest with you.” And I lay back on my bed and I phoned Percy Sonn. And Percy said, “I’m coming over to see you now.” I said, “You don’t, because at this game park, about six months ago, some American visitor left her residence hall to go for a little walk and got killed by a lion.” So, I remember phoning and he just died now, the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs there-
Aziz Pahad.
Aziz Pahad Yeah, look, I had a very warm relationship with him. I phoned him and he told Hansie must go to him. It was Ngconde Balfour. And I then handed over to the government. It was getting too big, it was all over the world. But I have one regret, which will be with me for the rest of my life. Because he phoned me one day and he said, “Doc, I’m in a terrible state.” I said, “Why?” He said, “Have you seen the news?” I said, “Now what’s in the news?” He said, “Percy Sonn just said that Hansie Cronje should not even be allowed to play cricket on a beach.” And he started to sob, and my heart just fell out. And so I handed it over to the government, which was the right thing to do. But I have one regret that during that difficult time, even though he had hurt, that I didn’t have the courage to go and see with him, just speak to him, listen to him. Couldn’t change the outcome, but I should have done that and I didn’t do that.
Well, that’s a very candid, honestly, can I just ask, Ali, if that was like the NADA of, you know, of your latter administration, what if I asked you is the greatest highlight of all when you look back?
I think unification of South African cricket.
Yeah.
In 1991, I mean, and it would not have happened without Steve, and I can tell you-
Sorry, I interrupted you, please carry on.
So, we met for the first time in Durban and both sides asked Steve to be the facilitator, which he did fine. And we started at 11 o'clock and we adjourned at one o'clock for lunch. And I remember the late Percy’s on the corner getting up and saying, “Listen, why are we not fighting? Why are we not fighting?” So, we had a second meeting on December the 16th in Port Elizabeth to try and get unification going. And I’d heard via the grapevine that the South African Cricket Board were going to demand equal housing, equal hospitals, equal this, equal that. And they were sports administrators, you know, didn’t fall under our domain. So, Steve came late that afternoon, early evening, I went to see him in his room and I put him in the picture. So, next morning we start, and within 15 minutes the South African Cricket Board are demanding equal this, equal this, equal this. And Steve stopped it and he said, “Can we adjourn for 15 minutes?” And he took the South African Cricket Board into a room and we came back and now was cricket. So, that night I said, “Steve, what did you say to them?” He said, “Listen, I told them, if you chaps mess it up because of your political gains, I’m going to tell the ANC it’s your fault not theirs. So, you better get it back inside and just talk cricket.” And that was the end of it, end of it. So, Steve-
When I listened to you I almost feel a sense of nostalgia in a way, because there was a real enterprise for a non-racialism in South Africa at that time, of which Steve Tshwete and yourself and all of that was part. I mean, in a way they, you know, they didn’t sort of beat you with the brush that, “Oh well, you know, you’d been the Gatting tour,” they saw you as somebody who was central to the process together with them to build non-racial cricket. I mean, it seems to me that that’s almost distant now in our politics.
You know, look, look, you know, the first time I met Mandela, I mean I brought Clive Lloyd out in August of 1991. And the first day he said to me, “I want to see Nelson Mandela.” So, I phoned Steve and next day he arranges. So, we went to Shell House top floor, and behind us were a lot of Swedish representatives from government, from the newspapers. And the door opened and I saw Mandela for the first time. And he saw Steve, me, and Clive Lloyd. And he said, “Steve, bring your two plugs in.” So, we went in and he only spoke to us for about two, three minutes. And I remember him saying to me, he said, “Ali, I hear you and your team are doing nice work in the townships, please keep it up. And then one of the Swedish delegate said to him, "You know, South Africa are back in world cricket, but they’re not going to the World Cup. What do you think?” He said, “Of course they must go.” It went around the world. The next day the Sri Lankan president, Wickremesinghe phoned me. We went to Dubai, wasted time and money. It was a 45 minute meeting and South Africa went to the World Cup, and that was his power. That was his power.
You know, the other things I’ve been told too that, you know, he backed the Springbok emblem on the South African rugby jersey in 1995. And on a Friday he made this announcement, and the media came to me and it was the first item on the news where he said he’s going to back the Springbok emblem. And they came to me and I said, “Listen, we have great respect for Mr. Mandela, but my constituency, our new constituency, you know, it’s England playing South Africa. It’s not the Lions playing this, that, we don’t work like in cricket, it’s not that important to us. So, we’re not going with that. Monday, it’s a Saturday morning, I get a phone call at nine o'clock. I know it’s him. So, he says to me, "Ali, how are you?” “Fine, Mr. Mandela.” He said, “What are you doing on Monday?” He says, “Why don’t you come and have lunch with me? So, I said, "Can I bring two board members?” “Sure, sure.” So, we go to Union Building and the next day was his birthday and he had a case of wine from some Eastern Europe country. And you know, he’s having lunch now and he said, “Come outside, I want to talk to you.” So, he said to us, he says, “You want to know why I’m backing the Springbok emblem?” And we said, “Yes.” He said, “Look, it’s very simple. I’m the first black president of this country. I know the Afrikaner, what rugby means to them. They’ve accepted me, and therefore to reciprocate I’m going to allow them to wear the Springbok emblem.” And that was it. And I’m told, I dunno how reliable it is, probably reliable, that the ANC hierarchy wanted a, were very cross with him. And I think I was told, but I can’t guarantee it, that they called him to a meeting in Cape Town on this issue. It lasted 20 minutes and he walked out, and that team’s still wearing the Springbok emblem.
Q&A and Comments:
- Yeah, yeah. Ali, I need to, we ran out of time. I’m just going to ask, I’m just looking at the questions. Most of them are to say hello. There are quite a few questions about Colin Bland, revolutionising fielding and in that tour that went to England and quite a few people. Yes, '65.
Q - Sorry, Michael and others ask, “Did you do any special training ?
A - I was really friendly with Colin Bland. He’s dead now, unfortunately. The two best fielders backward point cover was Colin Bland and Jonty Rhodes, Colin Bland was in the cover. I mean, he was just majestic. He was poetry the way he used to slide, pick up the ball. Yeah.
- Throw it over the stumps. He was unbelievable. Where Jonty was different, Jonty was hustling and bustling and diving, and jumping, and stopping this and stopping that. But those were the two best outfielders in that area that I I’d ever seen. Colin Bland became a very good friend of mine. You know, when we went to England in '65, my first match with South Africa is against Derbyshire. I got a naught and then I’ve got two runs, which took me about an hour. So, if you’ve given me a gun that night, I dunno what I’ve done with it. So, they dropped me for the next game and then we now go to London. And Colin saw that I was anxious and worried, and he came and sat next to me, 'cause he was a seasoned player and he more than anybody that gave me confidence that I can make it. And I did. And I, you know, it was his confidence with me, which allowed me, and I’m proud to say that, that on that tour, the most runs were scored by Graeme Pollock, and I was second. And I owe that to Colin Bland. He gave me that confidence.
Q - That’s amazing. Somebody asked, Adrian asked, just mentioned, sorry, that through marriage one of the members of the family was Sid O'Linn. He played before your time, didn’t he?
A - He played in my team when I was Captain of Transvaal at age 21. Sid O'Linn was Sid Olinsky. One of his parents was Jewish. He’s former wife, who’s still alive, so, a long story, only heard about this about three, four years ago. She never knew that one party of his parents was Jewish. But he went by Sid O'Linn and he played in my Transvaal team, I was captain of 21. He was my wicket-keeper batsman. And you know, he was a very good all around cricketer. And a very good soccer player.
- I remember that too. But his wife only learned recently that one of his parents were Jewish.
Q - Ali, that links to a question that is put. Did you ever experience anti-Semitism in your cricket career?
A - Only once. We were playing, for Balfour Park, a certain club in Johannesburg, I won’t mention the club. And we gave them a good thrashing, good thrashing. And the change rooms were right next to each other. And the captain of this particular team started to spear anti-Semite comments and the norm in lead Cricket then that at the end of a game, it’s protocol, the visiting team go to the home team clubhouse and have a drink with their beer and they go home. And I told our team, "You’re not going there tonight.” And oh, we didn’t go there that night. And one of the players in that team, I phoned the next morning and I said, “I want you to know why we didn’t come up.” That was, you know, the only point. And I must tell you another story, which is important. You know, when I was picked for South African captain, the convenor selectors was Arthur Coy from Port Elizabeth. He was Arthur Coy, he changed his religion. That’s what he’s called.
I didn’t realise that, that’s amazing.
Yeah, but he gave me an unbelievable support. That widows captain in 1970, he was a convener of selectors and it was unheard of him, at the end of the match he would call me aside, nobody should see us, and tell me, “Ali, what do you think? Do you think they should be at this change or that change?” And for four test matches he became our biggest supporter. Arthur Coy, Arthur Coy.
Q - And then finally. Ali, somebody asked whether you had any interactions with SACOS?
A - Nothing, and I don’t want to.
Okay.
Look, there’s a good reason.
Yeah?
Oh, five, six years ago I got a phone call from something government. The government who wanted to investigate SACOS, and they appointed an advocate lady, can’t even remember her name, myself, representing sport. And a judge who died two years ago in Johannesburg. He was losing it, what is his name? He died two, three years ago. Anyhow, it was a judge. Doesn’t matter. So, we spent about nine months investigating, questioning board members, people who associated. And we wrote a very damning report. And what happened was that the Minister of Sport at that time was a lady, I can’t even remember her name. And she wanted to see us before she had a press conference. And we spent a whole day with her and she read the report and she said, “This is not acceptable.” So, we had the press conference and Gideon, what was his name, he was in charge of SACOS, Gideon. He’s now in East London. Anyway, it doesn’t matter, try to prevail upon her to soften her criticism of SHOs after reading our report. And she didn’t. And you know, the next day she lost her position as Minister of Sport. She went back to parliament, I can’t remember her name. And Cyril Ramaphosa, I dunno for whatever reason, she and Steve were the best minister of sport we ever had. And I phoned her and I said, “I can’t believe what’s happened here.” So, she got lost to sport, but it was a very damaging report after nine months of questioning and questioning and research and research. And I doubt whether there’s any better now.
Ali, I want to say, it’s been absolutely fascinating. You know, there’s so many memories that you’ve triggered of my own, I can’t just help but conclude by mentioning Mackay Coghill because I don’t think I’ve ever seen, felt a more kind of excitable atmosphere.
In the Wanderers at five o'clock on an afternoon when Coghill came into Bell, the poor other side, on the other side, and there were probably 15,000 people, if not more, at the Wanderers. It’s quite the most electric atmosphere I still experienced.
Can I tell you one more story if you got time?
Yes, you can, final story, yes.
All right, so, look, so my rationale when we played Western Province Newlands, if they got our first innings lead, you know, it didn’t matter because they must have beat us outright. Because I knew when they came to Joburg, two days and they’re gone. They couldn’t clear, I knew that. So, we had this one particular match Friday, Saturday, Monday, and we lost on the first innings and now we’ve got to bat all day to give them three points. We get one point, we’ll do them at the Wanderers, it doesn’t matter. So, I’m batting all day and I’m not declaring. Why am I going to declare? So, the crowd gets a bit nasty and nasty.
Yes, sure.
And I was, and Coghill, who, you know, he’s like me, he’s strong willed, mentally strong. He came up to me, he said, “Look,” pleading me, “Please, please declare.” I said, “I’m not bloody declaring.” So, eventually goes the whole day and police escorted me off the field. So, the next day the headline is, “Bacher, you’re a big bore,” Eddie Barlow. Fair enough, okay. So, Cogs reads it, so he’s not happy. So, now we come to the Wanderers and it’s a second innings, it’s a Saturday and it’s very murky overseas. I think we had a bit of a lead, not a lot. And Cogs was angry, he was angry. So, I said, “Cogs, where you going?” He said, “I need to change my boots.” So, he comes up the rails at the Wanderers Stadium, and Dennis, I dunno, the first change room is the opposition. And then Transvaal, so he goes into the Western Province change room and he threatens him. He said, “Listen, I’m warning everyone, and when you get out there, I’m promise you I’m going to take your fucking head off.” And then he went to his own changeroom and changed his boots and came back on. He got seven for 21.
Yeah.
And I think he bowled, and I’m trying to work out why he was a wicket keeper. I mean, he bowled, I think the best ball I’ve ever seen. He bowled from a quarter drive end and he, the ball pitched about a foot outside his leg stump. And Eddie turned to turn it around and missed it and hit the top of off stump. We won a tee time on the second day and we won.
The version of a Denys Hobson leg spinner. Sorry Ali, thank you so much. This has been a wonderful discussion.
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure.
And I feel very privileged to have interviewed. Thank you very much.
No, Wendy, over to you.
Yeah, so what I want to say is, Ali, thanks. First of all, I say a huge thank you, for incredibly-
I enjoyed it, I enjoyed it. Look, I was a bit nervous, I want to tell you. And I know nervous. I watch him on TV every time, you know, getting the better people.
No-
My wife will tell you, I arrived here a bit nervous.
No short pitch bowling at all.
And I want to give a shout out to my aunt and Uncle Izzy because I can see that they’re there. And I hope that you’ve enjoyed it as much as, as, as I did. And Ali, it was so great having you on. We’ve been talking about for a long time. It certainly is a walk down memory land. You know, you spoke about van Zyl Slabbert, who was actually my lecturer at university. And Mervyn King who worked together with my dad and then Michael Kat. I mean, we are like this huge extended family. And it’s interesting for those people who are not South African to understand that there was this parallel going on. There were many of us South Africans who were just, we were doing alternative work, working in townships, working in teams, just praying, doing that. You know, when you aren’t in governments, it’s difficulty to shift government. But there were many parallels and it was really, it was a wonderful presentation.
Look, I’ve been, there’s not a day when I don’t wake up saying, “I’m very lucky.”
Yeah?
Very, very lucky. When you, were you going to do something on the 12th? Is that on Madiba?
So, you know what, I’m going to speak to Dennis now and that would be, it would be great to talk about it. And also, just to say that Ali, what I’d also like you to talk about, because when I was back in South Africa last year, I went with Ali. I met a young man by the name of Taddy Blecher.
You can’t believe, you know what’s happened there, you know what’s happened?
Well see Taddy, I’m meeting with Taddy tomorrow and he’s doing a presentation for lockdown. And actually, and you took me there and it’s your baby and your passion. And I reconnected with Taddy. And I’m honoured and thrilled to be partnering with him as well. So, we’d like you-
You know Anglo American? They’re now in London.
Yes.
Their head office for 81 years, they can’t sell. Opposite them is a 11 story building, which is theirs. They gave it to Taddy for one Rand.
That’s amazing.
They had offers of over a 100 million rand to buy that property.
That’s great.
One rand, I was at that launch. I’ve never been to a launch like that.
So, maybe talk about that next week with Dennis. And also, talk about your children, your grandchildren, and your beau and your mother. Astonishing-
Well, I got stories about my mother.
I was hoping that you’re going to touch Rose, but we are going to have to stop now, because our time come to an end, and we look forward to meeting up again. I knew that you two would be best buddies. Dennis, I knew that. Big shedeh.
Take care.
Take care, everybody. Send me a note when and what time and whatever.
Thank you. All right, big hug. Thank you very, very much.
Take care.
I thank you, thanks, Dennis.