Lord Roderick Balfour and Sandra Myers
Sandra Myers Interview with Lord Balfour
Sandra Myers | Interview with Lord Balfour
- Well, good afternoon, good evening. Good morning everybody. Welcome back to Lockdown. Today we have a very special guest, the fifth Earl of Balfour, who will be in conversation with Sandra Meyers. Thank you very much Lord Balfour for gracing us today, and we so look forward to hearing your presentation. So before I hand over to Sandra, I would just like to do a little bit of an introduction. Lord Roderick Balfour is the great nephew of Arthur James Balfour, the British Foreign Secretary and author of the Balfour Declaration. In addition to representing the Balfour family in Jewish Affairs, for the last 50 years, he has worked in investment related financial services. In 1990, he joined the London Bank and NM Rothschild and Sons. In 2003, he inherited the Earldom, and in 2005, set up the wealth management service company Vitrus Trust with some of his colleagues. In honour of the centennial of the Balfour Declaration in 2017, he was interviewed around the world, contributed to many articles, attended a number of synagogue services, and organised many private events in Israel. Well, that’s a very modest biography. I know that you have a lot under your hat, and we are so looking forward to hearing from you today, and thank you, Sandra, for organising this, and I’m going to hand over to you. Many thanks. Thank you, Wendy.
Thank you.
Okay, well, I’m going to add my thanks as well, and say welcome, Roddy, because that’s what I have to call you. I can’t call you anything else.
You called me that for 50, 40 years.
Yes, this is true. But ladies and gentlemen, as you heard from Wendy, we are interviewing very graciously the Earl of Balfour, who is the fifth Earl of Balfour, and I would like you to start, Roddy, please just give us a little bit about your own personal background, schooling, et cetera, et cetera, family situation. Just to give everybody a feel of you.
Thanks, Sandra. Yes, I had a sort of not a typical English life of somebody in my position. My father was younger son of a younger son, and that used to mean that there wasn’t too much financial help and assets around, and his commanding officer after the end of the Second World War said, “What are you going to do, Balfour?” And he really hadn’t the clue because he’d gone into the war at school age and came out at the age of 25. And this chap said, “Well, look, I have an engineering company in Manchester.” Very famous one of those days called Plat, very involved in textiles. And he said, “We want to get going in South America.” So 1947-‘48, we went to Brazil to get the business going there. So I was shipped out on a meat boat, and my father made a wooden box for me to get to Brazil. It was made to measure to fit under the basin in the cabin, and it had some rabbit wire over it so when we rocked around in the Atlantic, I wouldn’t fall out. But I seemed to have survived that. I remember quite a lot about Brazil from the age of five, and my parents were always very pro-Jewish as well. And of course in Sao Paulo and Rio in those days been enormous influx, particularly Hungarian Jews, who my mother always said were always the most fun, best looking, best dancers, and they just loved all that diaspora in Brazil. Then in 1953, for a number of reasons, one of which was to get us educated in Europe, we came back and then daddy was sent off to France where we had a very happy life until I was 18. Interestingly, when I was at school, nobody ever talked about the Balfour Declaration in England, nor did anybody socially. But when I was in France, every French child was taught about La Declaracion Balfour. And I remember my first brush with it was a badly framed copy of it hung on the back of my father’s loo door. And that was about it. So it was rather interesting.
If I’m not wrong, the rationale for the British actually drafting the Balfour Declaration was to carve up the Oman Empires as it was, and to stop the French getting influence in the Middle East. That was what I gleaned for it. That they believed that if they made Palestine, as it was, the home, it would be a foothold in the Middle East and they would control, the British would control the Suez Canal and business interest in there rather than the French. So maybe that’s why, you know, the sort of French were a little bit more touchy about it, I don’t know.
Yep. They weren’t touchy. I mean, it was just part of their education. And probably the end of the Ottoman Empire, you know, and the agreement was arrived at I think in 1916 or 1915 once the Ottoman Empire was clearly going to be defeated.
Yes. Yes. Let’s move on. Thank you so much for that. That was really was a nice sort of flavour of the background. So let’s go on to AJB, Arthur James Balfour, as he was the first Earl of Balfour appointed by Lord Salisbury, I think, wasn’t he? He was prime minister at the time, and he just appointed AJB as prime minister. I think he was two years, wasn’t it? 1903, 1905 or something like that.
Yeah, 1902 to 1905 I think.
1902 to 1905. Yes.
But he was leader of the Tory party before that, and he served in his uncle. I mean, Salisbury was his mother’s brother.
Right.
Salisbury was his mentor, and when Salisbury one day gave up and said announced to the world, and I’ve got the front of the London Evening Post or something just says Salisbury resigns, Balfour to be his successor. Nothing democratic like a vote amongst the party.
I love that. And of course, brought about the Earl of Balfour, Lord Cecil, his name was Robert Gascoyne-Cecil, and he was descendant.
You’ve frozen. Sandra’s frozen. Sandra?
[Wendy] I think her internet has just gone. I’m going to call her. Lord Balfour, you can continue if you’d like to, and I’ll just call her.
Sure. Whatever suits you.
Yeah. Okay. One of us froze. I froze. I dunno who froze.
[Wendy] I was about to call you.
Okay. Somebody’s frozen. Oh, there we are.
I can hear your IT manager in the background.
Really? You know my IT manager. God help us all if he’s the IT manager. I’m so sorry. Yes, I dunno whether I froze, but as I said, Robert Cecil, he was a descendant of the Cecils. Henry Cecil and that family.
Well, yes, Lord Burley, you know?
[Sandra] Yes.
Elizabeth’s great advisor and everything else. And they became really the sort of major Protestant family in the United Kingdom to this day. You know, the Salisbury’s are very powerful in the sense that any aristocratic family is powerful.
Yes, but he ruled from the House of Lords, did he not?
They didn’t worry too much about that sort of thing in those days.
No, I think that quite a unique situation to us in the UK because I know for our overseas listeners, it’s a unique situation that we have the House of Commons and the House of Lords, and they’re talking about, you know, getting rid of the House of Lords and the hereditary peers, et cetera, et cetera. But I digress. Could you please read the Balfour Declaration for us? We would be very honoured to hear it.
Sandra, before that, I know that you were intrigued to know about the expression and your audience.
Oh, yes, I’m sorry.
The expression Bob’s your uncle, and Lord Salisbury was known as Uncle Bob by everybody. And so everybody was amazed, you know, that he was just anointed as his successor. So it became a sort of common saying amongst working people, and everything else, you know? If you had a difficult problem, you just said, well, it’s easy. If Bob’s your uncle, then it’ll get done.
Lovely. I love that.
So that’s why Bob’s your uncle is still a very current phrase, or, you know, you put up a picture and, you know, it actually hangs straight like the one behind you and you say, well, Bob’s your uncle.
Great anecdote. I had never heard that before, and I think that’s just a lovely, lovely story.
It’s easy if Bob’s your uncle is the answer. So the declaration you wanted me to read?
Yes, please. So should we put a little background to this? Should we put a little sort of story as to how and when it came about, and the sort of rationale behind it all? Or would you like to read it first?
No, I’m very happy to do the background as I sort of see it and saw it.
Should we show a photograph of the Earl of Balfour, the first Earl of Balfour?
Do. Do.
Tessie. You there? Okay, this is a photograph of him as a young man. He was a very dashing young man, I think. And he didn’t ever marry, did he?
He had a very long standing love affair with somebody called Lady Elko.
[Sandra] Right.
And the relationship was described as more than friendship, but less than love. But his real love was somebody else who was called Lady Mae Littleton.
Really?
She died while they were engaged.
Oh, yes, yes, I think I remember reading that, yes. But because he didn’t have any children and he didn’t marry, the Earldom passed to his next brother that was your great-grandfather, is that correct?
No, there was one in between. There was Gerald, his brother, who was also in the cabinet and was the Irish secretary, the secretary for Ireland, and held various other posts and was very involved in various commissions and everything. And that was done by what was called special remainder because a quirk of the English aristocracy in the creation of these titles is that it does not pass at the first generation. If you don’t have any children, then it dies out. But because he knew he wasn’t going to have any children, there was something called special remainder by which it passed to his younger brother, Gerald, and then he went down through Gerald’s line, and then it bounced back up to my great-grandfather Eustace, who was a rather drunken architect, and sort of came down to me.
That’s fascinating. I mean, I never quite get my head round on all of that anyway. The Balfour declaration was drafted and handed to Lord Rothschild then. Could we have the photograph of Walter Rothschild as well, please? No, not that one. That’s it. Okay. This was, as you see, he was chairman of the board of Deputies British Jews, which is still running. And he was rather a quirky old guy that his carriage was drawn by zebras rather than horses, and he was known to have been quite eccentric. But he was very much friendly with Chaim Weizmann and Jabotinsky and a lot of the very influential, or the movers and shakers in Palestine at that time. So would you like to read it for us, Roddy, please?
Yeah, while you were just talking about that, when the declaration was sent round from the foreign office to Lord Rothschild, somebody asked Chaim Weizmann, “Why on Earth wasn’t it sent to you?” He said, “I’m fairly certain it’s because Lord Rothschild has a somewhat smarter address which is easier to find.”
Was that down in Piccadilly or something? Was it that you lived down there?
Yeah, 144 Park Lane or Piccadilly, yes.
Yes, something like that. Exactly. Exactly.
But Sandra, I think it’s very important before I read the declaration, just to say, you know, there’s a lot of controversy about it and everything these days, but it was, you know, he wrote it or sent it as the foreign secretary of a document agreed by Lloyd George the Prime Minister and the whole cabinet. And funny enough, there was only one opponent for it, really, and that was the only Jew in the cabinet who was Herbert Samuel.
Really?
I can’t for the life of me just quite remember what Samuel’s rationale was, but it was very much a British government document. But, you know, it has sort of always been attached since then to Arthur Balfour. Well, we all know that some people think it’s wonderful, and others think it was the beginning of the end.
Yeah, yeah, you’re right.
So it reads, “The foreign office November the second, 1917. Dear Lord Rothschild, I have much pleasure in conveying to you on behalf of his Majesty’s government the following declaration of sympathy.” Not very strong. “With Jewish Zionist aspirations.” Again, not very strong word. “Which has been submitted to and approved by the cabinet the following. His Majesty’s government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this subject. It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. I should be grateful if you bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation. Yours, Arthur Balfour.”
Thank you, Roddy. Jess, can we have the pictures taken off now? Thank you. Okay. Thank you, Roddy. I mean, the crucial word there is a homeland, rather than the which has always been sort of the contention, hasn’t it? A national homeland, not the national homeland.
A national home. Yes.
Yes, that’s always been the contentious word, isn’t it? Rather than the national homeland, which will forever be contentious, I guess.
Yes, I mean, I think, Sandra, that, you know, the thing the way I’ve always looked at it is, you know, the terrible pogroms of the end of the 19th century were taking place, and in the UK, I mean, there were immigration problems that day, and there were immigration problems there. And so large numbers of people looking rather strange and speaking a funny language turned up in the UK on boats from the Baltic and things, and, you know, Weizmann and Hertz, some people were very vocal in saying, you know, we need a home for, you know, for Jewish people and the covenant of Abraham says it’s got to be in the holy land because as you may remember, there was a lot of discussion about having it in Uganda.
In Uganda, yes, With Weizmann, yes.
And there were a lot of funny remarks about between Weizmann, and Balfour, and Lloyd George by putting it in Africa.
And then of course, sorry, as foreign secretary then, Balfour introduced the Aliens Act in 1905. So, you know, limiting the number of people coming into the UK from the countries where they were being persecuted. So on the one hand, he granted the Balfour Declaration, on the other hand, he was limiting immigration to the UK. Very interesting. It must have been very interesting times. These men, you know, they were very huge nationalists, I think, apart from anything else. Don’t you think so? I mean, they were, you know, the interests of the British Empire were first and foremost in their minds. I think that’s my view that, as I said, they saw the control or British presence in Palestine as it was, as being fundamental to being, having a foothold in the Middle East, rather than allowing the French.
Yes, and as you rightly say, the Suez Canal we wanted to make sure. But you may remember during the 1906 election, Weizmann met Balfour, and Weizmann joked that if Moses had been offered Uganda, he would’ve smashed the tablets. Would Balfour Exchange London for Paris? “But Dr. Weizmann, we have London,” replied Balfour. “That is true”, said Weizmann. “But we had Jerusalem when London was just a marsh.” So that was how that one was counted.
Yeah.
Interestingly, Balfour and Weizmann never met again for another 10 or 12 years after that 1906 meeting.
Really? That’s interesting. I don’t know. I mean, presumably both of them were, but Balfour he was in the cabinet. Was he 28 years altogether he served as a government minister?
Yeah, well, they all fit in and out in those days, you know? You weren’t suddenly put on the shelf. I mean, he came in and out, and of course, he famously became first Lord of the admiralty in succession to Churchill after Churchill’s Dardanelle’s debacle.
Yeah, it was slightly, but that’s really is fascinating. Thank you so much for giving us the insight into that.
Sandra, if I can interrupt. There was another great influence in all this which was my great Aunt Blanche Dugdale, who was always said to be rather enamoured of Chaim Weizmann, and I think he whispered sweet nothings in her ears and she passed them on to Arthur. And there’s no doubt Arthur had a genuine, you know, affection after he was MP from Manchester where there was a large Jewish community already in those days. So I think he was, by nature there is, you know, whatever I say, it was a government document. You know, he was, by his very nature, you know, very, I wouldn’t say enamoured. He was very keen on the idea of, you know, making Palestine a home for Jewish refugees. But the point I always make to people is, you know, it was such an underpopulated place.
Nobody wanted to go.
No, no, but you had the Palestinians, and I was reading earlier today, there’s an amazing bible up for sale at Sotheby’s called the Shem Tov Bible, and how the author of that ended up in Jerusalem, you know, in 1312 or something. So I mean, you know, people were there. But the census of 1922 which covered greater Palestine, which was a much bigger area than we think of today, there were only 722,000 people in that area. And today there are 12, 13, 14 million all jostling for ownership of it as it were.
Yeah, yeah.
So, you know, it was a very, very different, different place.
Yeah, Yeah. I know, I mean, some of the Holocaust survivors that I have spoken to subsequently whose parents actually went to see the possibility of going and living there came back to Germany in particular and said, well, I don’t want to live there. You know, there’s nothing, it’s a swamp, it’s a marshland. It’s, you know, malaria, and they didn’t want to go. But I have to say, I think above all, the pioneers made a wonderful job of making it a livable land. Whatever else anyone thinks about it and, you know, how political, with the political, you know, they worked and they died for it. So you have to give them, you know, huge credit for that huge credit there. Where did you go, Roddy, during the centenary of the Balfour Declaration, where were you invited? I know you went around the world speaking about it. Was there anywhere that really sort of stood out in your mind?
Oh, well, obviously my visit to Israel, which was organised by a marvellous man called David Dangue, and I spoke, so I never had to do anything official. And indeed, I was not very popular, I don’t think, with the Israeli authorities, because I rather focused on the fact of this central tenet of the declaration saying, you know, it being clearly understood, you know, and nothing should be done to prejudice the rights, civil and religious rights of the existing population. I have the distinction of having been branded by Alan Dershowitz as an antisemite. So, well, you can take that.
Wear it with pride. I don’t know. Everyone’s, you know, entitled to their opinion, I suppose, but I know you were very much, and the name that you carry has amazing respect for whatever, whether it’s good or bad, or political, you know, you have a name that does carry respect, and it made a tremendous difference in the world, of our world, our generation, so to speak, and our parents’ generation. It gave hope to people who wouldn’t have had anywhere to go to, quite frankly. I mean, bottom line, you know, every country, including the British in Palestine at that time, limited immigration. You know, just look at the story of the Exodus, you know, the ship the Exodus. They wouldn’t land. So strange times, I don’t think we’re not going through something dissimilar now. I mean, with the immigrants that are coming all over here, Italy, every country, we’re all in that sort of state, we’re all in that sort of state. Let’s just move on to your family. Now, I know you don’t have sons, but you have four gorgeous daughters, and the future of your title is a matter that we’ve talked about long and interestingly. So would you like to just talk about a little bit about anything that’s happened to it?
Yes, so I mean, there are, I mean, there’s so many anomalies in the construction of the House of Lords, and the titles, and everything else. So you have, I mean, I think I sent you the numbers, didn’t I?
You did. Yeah.
There are peer addresses in their own right. Many of them are Scottish, two of them are in Tessa, my wife’s family that goes down through the female line, and it was really thought that once Parliament had said that the eldest child of the Monarch, in those days our late beloved Queen Elizabeth II. You know, her next grandchild would be the Monarch regardless of whether it was a boy or a girl, why on Earth couldn’t that happen with, you know, the English with the UK titles? But it’s never happened. But interestingly, you’re talking to me on a day when I’m about to put pen to paper to the Times, which as you may know, I’ve done before.
Yes.
On this subject.
Very good. It was jolly good. Gave us a good laugh about it. It was just after we’d had the discussion.
You see, interestingly, I think that what has kept the English aristocracy people sort of being impressed, for want of a better word by it, and as opposed to Italian dukes and Spanish counts and all the republics in Europe where there are families that cling on to their status, we had actually constitutional status. So although I didn’t sit in the House of Lords, when a hereditary peer died, I would get to vote on whoever would succeed that person. We were sent a round list and you voted, you know, to have B to succeed A. So that meant that we were sort of brushing with parliament, and this abolition of the hereditary sitting in the House of Lords means we will effectively be just like the republics of Europe. And so I don’t see in this day and age once that constitutional overlay has been removed, I can’t for the life of me think why on Earth daughters shouldn’t be able to inherit in the same way as boys.
No, absolutely not.
So the removal of the hereditary in the Lords may make the succession by daughters much easier. I’m not sure we’ll even need an act of parliament, because we won’t have any status. It’ll be up to us what we do.
Why don’t you sit in the House of Lords?
Because I was too busy. I mean, if you want-
But you have the option, you could. You do have a place there.
No, no, no. I went up for interview only last year when Vitrus Trust, funnily enough, just got into it or two years ago. And you get interviewed by a panel of about 30 peers, and the thing which I rather mumbled over was the commitment to be prepared to be in the House of Lords voting during term time every night ‘til midnight one or two in the morning. I’ve done my work of being up at all hours for the Rothschild Bank. I really didn’t suddenly want to find my retirement. I was sitting surrounded by a whole lot of very sleepy peers on the green benches. On the red benches, sorry.
Yes, on the red ones. Yes.
I was rather iffy about my commitment on that so I didn’t get in, but I wouldn’t have been in wrong.
That’s interesting. Yes. I have to say, I’m very ambivalent about it, but I don’t see why a second chamber shouldn’t be as effective as a voted chamber because I think a voted chamber would be far less effective because with a second chamber of hereditary, et cetera, et cetera, you’ve got a good cross section of our society. You know, maybe some come from a slightly, you know, more privileged background than others, but certainly it’s a good cross section. You know, it’s as arbitrary as anything else, quite frankly, and I would hate to have a voted house. Personally, I don’t think that would be democratic in our society in my view anyway.
Yes, the trouble is that now it’s just going to be the flick of a premier’s pen to put it in their place. You know, people who have not done a great deal in life. I mean, the criticism of the present people elected to the Lords in large measure are people who’ve never really done much more than political consultancy and studies. They have not run businesses. You know, those are the people you want in, the industrialists, and the tech boys, and everything, but it’s a way of premiers repaying their meats.
Yeah, I personally think that anyone elected to the House of Commons should have been in business, should have done something other than being a professional MP because I just don’t think they ever see not quite not what the real world is. I mean, you know, is there a real world? But I think that they should have all had some sort of business experience along the way rather than just being sitting as an MP. You know, I just don’t think it works personally, but that’s just my view. That’s just my view of it.
Well, it’s not working, it’s not working.
No, no, but yeah, it’s interesting. It is interesting. But how do you feel-
But going back to, I mean, you remember that we all used to sit in the House of Lords. I mean, before 1997 when Tony Blair, you know, new labour got in, all the peers sat in the House of Lords, but it was part of the labour manifesto to do something about the House of Lords. So Robert Salisbury, my cousin, was the leader of the House, and he did a deal with Tony Blair whereby 92 hereditaries would remain in the house. But I was very surprised by that because labour in particular have never wanted to have an elected second chamber because if it was elected, they could just throw legislation back at the house to filibuster. But he did that, and they never did do reform of the House of Lords and the later government, Cameron, and what was he called? Who’s the liberal? Nick.
Yes, yes, exactly. Okay.
Anyway, they were going to do something about it.
Clagg.
Clagg. I think I’m not being unfair reneged on it, because we didn’t. The Tories wouldn’t do something like that. So it’s a thorny problem that the Commons wants it reformed, and everybody else would like to see it reformed but in a democratic manner, and the Commons don’t want to see it democratic.
It’s extraordinary here in this little country, this little island, that we have such a unique governmental system. I’m always quite fascinated by it. You know, it’s democratic and it’s undemocratic in both ways. It’s really quite fascinating. You know, with this tiny little island of what now 70 million people, which really is just a dot on the map. I just found out it’s archaic, but we love it. That’s what’s so fascinating about it. You know, put me with a history book, or you with a history book, you know, you’re in your element. We can sort of go back to Henry VIII, and when people come to the UK, they just want to go and see. I mean, my granddaughter, for example. She only wanted to go and see where Anne Boleyn was beheaded in the Tower of London. You know, could I show her the plaque? That’s all she wanted to see. Oh, it’s wonderful, you know, that our children are sort of, you know, so interested in that, and it’s so unique and it’s an anathema to the rest of the world, I think, that we have this, and it’s a shame if our traditions get lost, but I don’t see why women shouldn’t inherit. There’s no reason, especially as you say, royalty has that clause, and Victoria inherited from her uncle, didn’t she? I mean, even before our late queen.
Yeah, Indeed, indeed.
So, well, I hope your daughters get. It was a very good story. Your last article took two pages of the Daily Mail, which we thought was jolly good. And then the letter in the Times, I think the Mail came after the Times but the genesis behind this, I will tell the story, is that Roddy has four lovely daughters and I was out shopping with a granddaughter one day, and we were in a local store or something like that, and she wanted to try something on. We’d been up and down and up and down, and finally, we were upstairs and it was just the men’s changing room. And I said to the guy on the door, I said, “We’d like to go and use the changing room. My granddaughter wants to try.” He said, “This is the men’s changing room.” I said, “Well, fine, we will identify today as men.” And he absolutely poker face and he didn’t say anything. The lady’s changing room downstairs, and subsequently, when we were together, and I’m telling you this story, you said, that’s it. We can identify as men, and that was what the genesis of it was. It was quite a funny story, but we did have to go to the ladies changing room in the end, but it was a good story. It was a good story. Going on to your wife’s family, just very briefly, and very generally, not specifically, they are the leading Catholic family in the country, are they not? The Norfolks.
Yes.
And it’s very interesting because your family were Protestant and their family was Catholic, and you were both from the oldest family, Anglican family and Catholic family in the country, and it’s interesting that the Catholic family has the position of being, what would you say?
The hereditary Earl Marshall.
The hereditary Earl Marshall, yes. Do you know how that came about being Catholic rather than… Was it during Mary’s reign, or?
Well, no, I mean, 'cause of course he, you know, I thought when you were doing Anne Boleyn, you were going to segue into that because she was a member of Tessa’s family, as was Catherine.
Yes, yes.
Because their uncle was the third Duke of Norfolk. So he was Earl Marshall then.
Right, but they were Anglican at the time, weren’t they?
No, no, they were always Catholic.
They were always Catholic, right? Oh, of course. Yes, yes. I’m sorry. They were Catholic, yes.
And they managed to sort of finagle their way around and swear allegiance and all the rest of it.
And they kept their head. They kept their head.
Well, the third Duke kept his head. The fourth Duke of course did not because he flirted with Mary Queen of Scots, and Queen Elizabeth thought, oh dear, Mary’s Catholic, Norfolk’s Catholic, and if they get married, you know, it’ll mean that the English throne will become Catholic again. So she had Norfolk beheaded along with Mary Queen of Scots.
Yeah, yeah. Oh, I didn’t know that actually. I knew she had Mary Queen of Scots beheaded, but I didn’t know she had the Duke of Norfolk beheaded.
And that’s why people come down here to Arundel. To your viewers listening, I lived at the family seat of the Norfolk, which is down on the south coast of England. And everybody said, why is he the Duke of Norfolk not the Duke of Sussex? Well, we’ll leave the present Duke of Sussex out of it.
Yes, I do remember-
And the answer was that, to interrupt you, sorry, Sandra.
No, no, no, my fault.
That as part of his beheading, the fourth duke, he was what was called a tainted because of this treasonous affair with Mary Queen of Scots, and therefore all his lands in Norfolk, most of Norfolk was forfeit to the crown. So that’s why they have virtually nothing in Norfolk. They’re just down here in Sussex.
That’s interesting. Yeah, no, I do remember, I think it may have been Kim Varra’s wedding when they were married in Arundel cathedral, which was the most beautiful, beautiful affair and I just loved seeing all the villagers come out, and it was really a sort of little bit of noblesse oblige when they walked back up to the castle. And I just thought it was like mediaeval almost, you know, that the whole atmosphere was must have been sort of, you know, I think it was your first one. It was just sort of extraordinary that the whole village wanted to see, which I think was very lovely. Yeah, it was nice to see.
No, we’re very blessed with all that around here.
Yeah, no, you live in a good place. But Roddy, I thank you so much for your time. I don’t know if anyone has any more questions, if there’s anything you’d like to add to our chat, which has been wonderful. I really appreciate your taking the time to chat to us, and I know that everybody on our lockdown will be fascinated to hear. And if anybody has any questions, do you think that you’d be happy to answer them?
Absolutely. Yeah. Nothing’s out of bounds.
Oh, I tell you what we didn’t discuss. I’m so sorry. One thing.
You’ve frozen.
At Cambridge University.
The picture?
Ask you about with the painting. Has anything happened subsequent to that?
No, nothing at all. I think that-
Could we show a picture of the portrait before and after? It was with Extinction Rebellion was it? The woman who threw paint at it. Jess, are you still there? No, not that one. Too back. Too back. That’s it. So this is a picture of the portrait before that hung at Cambridge University. And could we have the next one please? And this is the Extinction Rebellion, what they actually did to it. I dunno if anyone has seen that. What did they do with the portrait afterwards, do you know?
Oh, they took it away to repair, and I think you can see the right hand of the perpetrator, and you can see white lines. And luckily, she took a box cutter to it with a very sharp blade, and they think it’s going to be, well, it’s not Cambridge, you’ve told me this, but other people in the art world. They should be able to put it back together again. Getting the red paint off may be slightly more difficult, but probably not. But it just is mindless vandalism really.
I couldn’t see what purpose it served, quite frankly. I mean, there was no reason to do that, you know? I mean, mindless vandalism as you say. Did they ever catch anybody, did they ever charge anybody for that?
No, I don’t think they did. I don’t think they did. Cambridge were very unaggressive about the whole thing, and, you know, they never said to get these people. They just sort of said, you know, it’s a pity and we’ve notified the police, and that was about as much as they said.
Just one last picture I’d like to show, Jess, is of the Earl of Balfour addressing the foundation stone of the… Pardon me. Oh, that’s with Chaim Weizmann and his wife. Lord Balfour’s in the middle. That’s rather a lucky colonial looking picture. The last one was he was on Mount Hertzel before the inauguration of the university. No, it’s the last picture I think. That’s the one on Mount Scopus for the dedication of the Hebrew University, which I think is a beautiful photograph.
And I don’t know how many of your audience have been to the Hebrew University, but when you go in the entrance hall up on Mount Scopus, there’s an enormous mural of the laying of the foundation stone. Actually, I’m not sure if it was laying the foundation stone. I think it just may have been the dedication.
Right.
Anyway, it’ll have its hundredth anniversary next year, so we’ll-
Oh wow.
We’ll see what happens.
Maybe you’ll be invited again.
I’m not holding my breath.
You’re right. It’s great.
It’d be nice. It would be nice to go.
It’s a great place, I have to say, and it has an awful lot. I mean, it has a very mixed student population, you know, both of Israeli and Palestinian as well, which is obviously the Palestinian is, you know, who live in Israel. But it has a very mixed, very mixed student group. Yes, but as I say, thank you so much, Roddy. And I don’t know the questions that have come, if I’ve got. Oh, we have, we’ve got a little list of questions. Can I ask you?
Sorry, may I jump in and ask the first question?
Absolutely. I’m absolutely sorry, Wendy. Yes, darling.
Q&A and Comments:
Q - No, thank you very, very much. I just wanted to ask you a question. Would you tell us a little bit about your trip to Israel, and what was your experience being there?
A - Well, I mean, I used to go a lot for business. So, yeah, I mean, I found it a very, very stimulating place. I won’t say I found the local population always very easy to do business with, but, you know, you’re just the energy, and, you know, I visited a lot of the tech firms when I was there and, you know, met a lot of expats and everything. So it just is the most amazing place, and, you know, when you’re driving to Tel Aviv these days, and look, you know, you see these enormous skyscrapers that say Google, Microsoft, and all those things, you realise how important the brain power in Israel is to these, you know, multinational corporations who have, you know, really such an integral part of our lives today.
Absolutely. Of course it was Rothschild bank, so of course.
Well, interestingly, Wendy, I mean, Sandra was just talking. I mean, some of my favourite people that we used to look after were the Palestinians, you know, in Israel, and there was great coexistence. And I particularly remember spending time with the baker in Jaffa, I think it was. Abu Alafia he’s called, and somebody could correct me. And I know he was always very popular 'cause when the Jewish holidays were taking place, he could bake all the bread that all the Jews could eat the next day when fasting was over. He couldn’t have been more charming and happy to do business with others.
Absolutely. Well, you know, when I was in Israel after October 7th and I visited the Arab Israeli community, because we work closely with them. You know, one of the woman came and gave me a huge hug and she said, you know, before October the seventh, we were Arab Israelis, but now we are Israeli Arabs and we are one with all of you. So it’s really heartbreaking what’s going on there. I mean, apart from, of course it’s just devastating, but it extends, the ramifications are huge as we all know.
Yes. Yeah.
Q - Very sad, sad all round. I don’t think there’s any winners out of this, quite frankly. Maxie comes up with a comment. It’s more a comment than a question where it says, I understand that Samuel’s rationale was not wanting to undermine the commitment of the British state to its Jewish citizens. I’m not quite sure what she means by that, to be quite honestly. And then Ronnie says, “Was it not the commitment of the Jewish citizens to the British state, i.e. dual loyalties?” Do you have any comment on that?
A - Not really. I’m not clear in understanding the point or the question.
Q - Yeah, I’m sorry. Yes. And the next question, was America involved or at least informed of the Balfour Declaration?
A - Oh, I think very much so 'cause I think Lansley was in the State Department, and I mean, it’s written everywhere that one of the things that promoted the idea of the declaration was to bring the American Jewish support into the Great War. There’s not much doubt about that.
Yes, yes, I think I got that, yes. And the next comment was, “Was not Lord Balfour also involved in serious Christian biblical interpretation?” I think he means AJB. I don’t think he means you.
Yes. Yeah. He was an extraordinary man. I mean, a voracious reader. You know, he was president of the Royal Society. He and his brother were in the psychic movement. They were real polymaths and, you know, they were part of this lot of rather intellectual aristocrats called The Souls who debated all these issues, and religion, and everything all day long. They were very cerebral, cerebral generation.
Oh yeah.
Apart from my drunken great-grandfather.
You got to think about him, yes.
Well, he is well documented, yes.
Really?
Yes.
Q - Okay, okay, that’s interesting. Shelly has asked, “What was Alan Dershowitz’s issue with you, with you Lord Balfour.” I guess it must be you. And then she says, “Alan Dershowitz has become an RW shander.” And I don’t know what that is. He’s ruined his reputation. I’m not quite sure what that means personally, but do you know?
A - Yeah, I was interviewed for the New York Times in 2017 all about the two-state solution and all that sort of stuff. And, you know, one of the things I did was I said what concerned me was that central tenet of the Balfour declaration, you know, had simply not been adhered to since 1948. and that was really all I said, but that was enough to get me branded.
Yes, you probably didn’t need too much excuse. Sharon goes on to say, “The Balfour Project is probably the UK’s most powerful Pro-Pal lobby group behind many of labor’s Pro-Pal decisions. It has very little pro-Israel representation and should be better represented at events. What are your thoughts?” I mean, I think I know what your listener is alluding to, and of course the Prime Minister is married to a Jewish lady. You know, awful lot of people in powerful positions here are very much pro-Israel, and it’s so important for business, and academia, and everything else. But of course, we’ve had an awful lot of immigration from Pakistan and other places, you know, which has meant that there are more and more voters who just don’t see the merit of Israel, and are really on the side of, you know, to put it bluntly, as you see from the protests and things we have waving Hamas banners and Palestinian flags. That’s the sadness of it. If any of your listeners want to read about what goes on in Britain and why there is this battle, there is a book called “The Go-Between.” Not the old one by Forster, was it? It’s by a young Muslim called Osman Yousefzada, and it’s about his upbringing in the outskirts of a city in Birmingham, up in our Midlands industrial heartland, and basically the completely separate life and nonintegrated life which these young people are being brought up into, you know, and wanting, you know, the mullahs wanting Sharia law and everything instead of English law. You know, there are forces at work which are proving very, very difficult to work with.
I think Luton is the same. I think it’s virtually non-English. I know people who live there and who find it a very alien place now, and I don’t know what the solution is. I mean, I’m not a politician and I have no political sort of thoughts. I can’t see the end of it, and this takes us on to the next comment. Ed is saying, “I find that the Balfour project seems to be rather irrelevant today, and with an imagined idea of its importance in having any effect on Israeli and Palestinians. It seems to act as British people embarrassed that the UK handed the protectorate back to the UN pretending that they would, quote, sort it out. A grave mistake, particularly as the UN has lost any moral fibre.”
Hmm, that’s strong wording, Ed.
Yeah, I think there’s a very, very good comment, actually. I think the UN has become completely toothless. You know, I don’t want to get too political, but I mean, why they can’t be in charge of… They send 12,000 troops into Mali in Central Africa, which most people don’t know about. I’ve flown into the Congo and there’s UN people all over the place, not UNWRA, and I don’t understand why the UN and others cannot get together to control the Philadelphia corridor, which seems to be the nub of the roadblock in negotiations for freeing hostages.
The whole thing is just too sad even to sort of contemplate really. Yehuda has mentioned, “What is your opinion about the charity Balfour Project? I gather that in its early days, its steering committee included Reverend Seitzer who has been banned 'til 2030, and Jennifer Tong whose egregious statements need not be repeated here.” And I must be honest, I don’t know of either of them. So I’m just reading out. Another member of the group from Friends of Sabil UK admired a Christian Palestinian activist who said among other things, “In this season of Lent, it seems to many of us that Jesus is on the cross again with thousands of crucified Palestinians around him.” I must admit, I don’t know who Reverend Sizer is nor who Jennifer Tong is. So if you have any thoughts on that, Roddy, I’d appreciate it because I don’t know what the charity is either.
Well, it’s not something I’ve ever heard of, and from the way that they’re talking, if I have misunderstood your listener, it doesn’t stand like something I would want to be involved with.
Q - No. Interesting. Margaret has said, discussing Primogenitor, “Would it not be possible to pass the title to the first grandson, or if daughter number one has a son to him if the daughters can’t inherit the title themselves?”
A - Well, interesting angle. I mean, one of the big discussions that’s been going on, of course, is that the way that our inheritance taxes, estate taxes work here in the UK. We have what’s called the seven year rule where people give away their assets. So very typically, you know, a wealthy landed estate with big house, and land, and everything, that has been signed over to the eldest son, typically. You know, many aeons ago, many years ago to get it out of inheritance tax.
Yeah, yeah.
If suddenly you said the eldest daughter will inherit the title, you’ve suddenly potentially got, you know, the Duke of Marlborough becoming the Duchess of Marlborough as a daughter. But in fact, her elder brother, well, her younger brother, who’s the eldest boy inheriting all the assets. That’s been a… You can’t reverse that. So an awful lot of planning had been done. So I was very much somebody who said those arrangements should stay, and it should be the next generation, as it were, where the change would come.
Interesting. Maybe it will be certainly in this generation. If nothing else, it will be in the next generation, I guess, won’t it?
Sandra, I think that this removing any constitutional role for the Peerage and the House of Lords is really sort of, for want of a better word, disembowelling the aristocracy. I mean, I don’t know, as I said earlier on, I feel that it’s had its power compared with, you know, European states. A, through the fact that we have a thriving monarchy, and the fact that we have this position in relation to the House of Lords. But once that’s gone, you know, who’s going to care?
No, I think that’s right. I think our whole society’s completely changed I think. Must be getting old definitely. Maxine makes another comment. “There are lots of arguments for the House of Lords as presently constituted, but it’s not a cross section of British society.” I’m not sure that I wholly agree on that. “Also, it’d not be democratic to make rules about who can or cannot stand for Parliament and what kind of CV they have.” Now, I’m not personally suggesting making rules for who can or cannot stand, but I personally seriously believe that people who stand for Parliament should have some sort of business experience, and I would stand by that 100%. I mean, our current prime minister was a lawyer and a very eminent one, and he does have experience, and Rishi Sunak, like him or don’t like him, did have business experience whether that was appreciated. You know, whether you like him or not, he did have, and I think that’s very fundamental to know how business works, quite frankly. That’s my view anyway, but that’s only my view. That’s just my view. David is asking about Samuels. “Do you think Samuels was against the idea of the Balfour Declaration as he was very active supporting Israel later?” This was the comment that you made that he wasn’t in favour of it.
Yes, I mean, I’d have to go back and do my homework. I just remember it’s always stuck in my mind that the only Jewish member of the cabinet who ironically was against the declaration.
Yeah, yeah, and Michael Graham adds that there’s been a Cecil in government since William Waldegrave. Wow, that’s an interesting point. What am I going? Sheila thinks, “Roddy you should definitely be invited to Hebrew University next year. Just hope it will be able to happen. May the times improve. Shalom, thanks so much for today’s talk.”
How nice.
Very, that’s very sweet. Very lovely. Thank you. Thank you so much, Sheila. Carol goes on to say, “I would like to point out most of the students at Hebrew University are Israeli, either Jewish or Muslim.” Yes, you’re correct. I did make the point of saying that the Palestinians that were there were Israeli. Yes, absolutely. Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs. Okay, Rhonda says, “Thank you for this lecture and on a different topic, Sandra… Oh, no, I’m not going to go on that. This is a compliment to me and I’m very embarrassed. It’s Rhonda from Toronto. I always present myself so elegantly. Do I have a fashion background? No, unless you count the fact that my father was a ladies tailor. That’s the only thing I can say. No, I don’t, but thank you for the compliment, Rhonda. Always nice to hear that. Barry has said, "According to Chat GPT, the reason that Lord Samuel dissented was because he was concerned about what would happen to the Arab population.”
Yep, fair enough.
Okay. Okay.
Hyam goes on, “Are you sure Herbert Samuel, an ardent Zionist, opposed the Balfour Declaration? I thought it was Edward Samuel Montague and Herbert Samuel the first high commissioner for Palestine. He did indeed. I know that. Yes.
I’m just looking this up.
I don’t know my history well enough to know whether he actually opposed it.
Herbert Samuel was the first nominally practising Jew served as a cabinet and to become the leader of a major political party. I’ll have to do my homework on that. Maybe it was only for a short while that he.
I honestly couldn’t say. Hyman, I think we’ll have to come back to you with an answer on that. If you could be patient, one of us will get in touch with Corina and come back with you with an answer. There’s just a couple more. Bob makes the comment that there’s also a seven year rule in ancient Jerusalem in the Torah releasing debt and letting indentured servants to be free. I didn’t know that at all. And Ronnie goes on to say that Montague is a name from that time. I don’t know which time you’re talking about, Ronnie. I’m sorry. You obviously know what you meant, but I’m sorry I don’t see which time we’re talking about. Or maybe you’re talking about the Henry Cecil back to Elizabethan times, maybe. Roddy, thank you so very much for your time.
My pleasure.
Oh, there’s, hold on, there’s more.
[Lord Roderick] I’m not sure how much anybody’s learned.
Well, I just think it’s interesting. I think we’ve gone through the questions. I think that everybody’s been very captivated by your speech. It was very lovely to chat to you as always, and it’s rather nice of you to give us, I mean, more than rather nice, very generous of you to give us your time. And I’m sure that people listening perhaps here in the UK but particularly abroad, will appreciate having heard of you and a member from the British aristocracy, which always goes down well with our overseas listeners of who we have very many. So I think we had about 700 people, machines, not people. So you could perhaps say they were coming something like 1400 people listening to us today. So I hope they’ve learned something, and we’re very appreciative of your time. Me especially.
Well, thank you, and Wendy and all the team.
No, and I want to say… Go on. Sorry.
No, I’m delighted to, you know, impart these little bits of history to everybody.
[Sandra] Well, Wendy, would you conclude? Thank you.
We are absolutely thrilled to have you join the Lockdown University family. And just to echo Sandra’s words, really thank you very much for giving up your time, and for me, it was extremely fascinating and an absolute pleasure to meet you. So thank you, and thank you to Sandra for organising this presentation. And Jess as always.
Where are you, Wendy?
I’m actually in Spain. I’m at a hot spa in Spain before my crazy schedule takes off next week.
Because with the weather we’ve got here, it’s very jealous making.
Oh, it’s grim. Absolutely grimmy. Winter has arrived.
It’s absolutely beautiful here. So I recommend it for all our listeners. I recommend it for anyone there. Well, thank you everybody.
Not at all. Goodbye, everybody. Thank you for your interest. Lovely. Thank you. Roddy, again, thank you for your time and we’ll speak soon.
Thanks.
Bye.
Have a lovely day. Lovely to meet you.
Bye.