William Tyler
WWII
William Tyler - WWII
- And welcome to everybody. Three things before I start, I put a third blog on my blog about the Ukraine. The blog is www., one word, talkhistorian, T-A-L-K, talkhistorian.com, and you can find it there. I’ve also put on my blog today, some books, which are the ones that I’m going to use in this talk, so that you can have a look, and if necessary or if you’re interested, you can get hold of them and read them. You probably heard that Wendy and I were talking about the horror of Ukraine, and I’m sure wherever you’re listening from, you are equally as horrified of events, and I was being critical and so was Wendy, of our Western leadership. I’d like to remind you that Churchill said in the years of the 1930s, that what was needed was “resolute action.” It’s a good phrase, isn’t it? Resolute action. You must judge for yourselves, whether you think the West, America, Britain, or wherever you are listening from, Canada, Israel, whether the West has shown resolute action. That choice is yours to make. Now, I’m talking about the Anschluss, and I’m talking then onwards about Austria in the Second World War, before next time, talking about how it was very difficult for Austria after the end of the war in 1945, not so much to decide where it was going, but that other countries would let it decide where it was going. So that’s for the future. The Anschluss and the absorbing of Austria, in particular, Vienna, into the Third Reich in 1938 was very personal for Hitler. I’m going to quote from a book called “Hitler and the Habsburgs,” it’s on my blog if you want to look at it, by James Longo.
And he begins this book on “Hitler and the Habsburgs” with a quotation from Hitler himself. “I resolved that night that someday I would come back to the Imperial Hotel in Vienna and walk over the red carpet in that glittering interior where the Habsburg danced.” And what he was referring to in 1938 when he did precisely that when he came to Vienna. On the day of the Anschluss, a few days later in Vienna, he stayed in the Imperial Hotel, and he was remembering something that had happened two decades before, and he wrote about it. And this is two decades before. “I could see the glittering lights and chandeliers in the lobby of the hotel, but I knew it was impossible for me to set foot inside. One night after a bad blizzard, which piled up several feet of snow, I had a chance to make some money for food shovelling snow. Ironically enough, the five or six of us in my group were sent to clean the street and sidewalk in front of the Imperial Hotel. I saw Emperor Karl and Empress Zita step out of their imperial coach and grandly walk into this hotel over the red carpet. We poor devils shovelled the snow away on all sides and took our hats off every time the aristocrats arrived. They didn’t even look at us, although I still smell the perfume that came to our noses. We were about as important to them, or for that matter to Vienna, as the snow that kept coming down all night, and this hotel did not even have the decency to send a cup of hot coffee to us.
I resolved that night that someday I would come back to the Imperial Hotel and walk over the red carpet in that glittering interior where the Habsburgs danced. I didn’t know how or when, but I waited for this day and tonight I am here.” Quite an insight really, isn’t it, to Hitler, his, not so much obsession, but his deeply held view and desire that Austria should be part of the Third Reich and that the Habsburgs should be consigned to history. So then it’s the Anschluss and World War II is my topic, and this provides me with an opportunity, and I never spur this opportunity, of using some of Winston Churchill’s writings. I’ve already quoted Churchill already this evening and I’ll go on quoting Churchill, as we’ll see. Specifically in the case for his history of the Second World War, first published in the years just after the war, Churchill, Churchill was absolutely clear that if you wanted history to think well of you, then you should write that history yourself, and if possible, get your version of events before the public, before other people, which is what Churchill did. And I say that because he titled the chapter on the Anschluss as The Rape of Austria. Now, I feel that almost no contemporary historians today would use a phrase like the rape of Austria in order to discuss the Anschluss because rape implies quite clearly that the victim is not compliant and in agreement, whereas in fact, whereas in fact the majority of Austrians welcomed the Nazis.
This was no Kyiv resisting the Russians in 2022. This was the Austrians, even the Viennese, waving Nazi flags, giving the Nazi salute, and throwing flowers at the Wehrmacht soldiers. Churchill gives us two reasons, in addition for that personal reason that we’ve talked about, to incorporate Austria into the Third Reich, Churchill gives two reasons why Hitler invaded Austria. And he writes this. I love reading Churchill, it’s so easy to read. It’s beautifully written. “Apart from Hitler’s resolve, so plainly described in "Mein Kampf,” to bring all Teutonic races into the Reich, Hitler had two reasons for wishing to absorb the Austrian Republic. It opened to Germany, both the door to Czechoslovakia and the more spacious portals of Southeastern Europe. Since the murder of Chancellor Dollfuss in July, 1934,“ which we’ve spoken about, "by the Austrian section of the Nazi Party, the process of subverting the independent Austrian government by money, intrigue, and force had never ceased.” Now, I said a moment ago, be careful with Churchill’s writings. You need to question them in the light of professional historians’ views. And Brendan Simms, in one of the latest books he published on the life of Hitler, Brendan Simms writes this. “The occupation of Austria was not intended to provide Hitler with a staging ground for further expansion to the south or the southeast. The new name of the province,” that’s what Austria was called as the Lander within Germany, “Ostmark made clear that he saw it as a bulwark on the southern flank of the Reich, not a sally port.”
So he’s saying in effect to Churchill, your view that he was then aiming at Czechoslovakia is not true. Well, you canst, again, come to your own views about that. Certainly, Czechoslovakia is the next place that Hitler looks at, but would he have done in different circumstances? Now, all of this is of enormous importance today because although history never repeats itself, the Russian invasion of Ukraine raises uncomfortable parallels, shall we say, with these events of 1938. The fall of Austria is not like the attack on Ukraine, Ukraine is resisting. But next to Ukraine is Moldova, not a member of the United Nations, and with a breakaway province down the side, the western border of Ukraine called Transnistria. Transnistria already has Russian troops, we don’t know how many, on its territory, and yesterday asked for additional Russian troops to protect it from, well, Moldova, NATO. It’s under no threat. But once the Russians have taken hold of Ukraine, if they do, then I think Moldova is next. And they’re going to run out of non-NATO countries. I can’t answer the question whether Putin is sane in a normal sense of the word or not, and whether he might attack a NATO country.
Hopefully, someone in MI5, MI6, CIA knows the answer to that because if not, I think we’re screwed if we don’t know quite the state of mind of Putin. So this has unfortunate parallels, and that’s what makes this talk, to me at least, it may not be to you, of such interest. Let’s look now at the sequence of events that led the independent nation of Austria to become a fully integrated part of Germany. Of Germany, not just the Third Reich Empire, of Germany. And Hitler changed his mind over that, you know. Hitler, we like to think of the Germans as being terribly well-organized and planned. It’s not actually true, as it isn’t true that the Russians have always been a great military power. Think Crimean War, Afghanistan, Chechnya, First World War. No, no, they haven’t. And Hitler changed his plan for Austria. His original plan was to put in a puppet Nazi government, as he was to do wherever the Nazis took European land, for example, in Vesoul, France. And that’s what he was going to do. But his welcome, and this is what’s important to the subsequent story of Austria, Hitler’s welcome in Austria was overwhelming. It overwhelmed him. It surprised him. It surprised Nazis and non-Nazis, so enthusiastic were they that he then decided he’d go the full hog straight away and incorporate Austria into Germany. The story of the Anschluss begins a year before in 1937, when in the late summer of ‘37, Hitler told Goebbels that Austria would have to be taken by force. Now, that’s not what he did diplomatically. He was talking about all sorts of things diplomatically. Could you ever trust Hitler? No. Can you ever trust Putin or those diplomatic talks before the actual invasion? He already had the invasion well-planned, as indeed Hitler had as regards Austria.
In mid-February of 1938, following increasing pressure from Hitler that Austria agreed to a union, he was talking about union then, but in fact, he saw that as a long-term issue, and he was going to set up a Nazi government, as you will see. The Austrian chancellor, Schuschnigg, went to Berchtesgaden, met Hitler in an attempt to avoid that outcome. He believed in an independent Austria, although he was not a full-blooded Nazi, not a member of the Nazi Party, but he leaned strongly towards the Nazis by this stage. Hitler presented Schuschnigg with a set of demands that included appointing Nazi sympathisers into the government. In particular, he wanted a man called Arthur Seyss-Inquart as Minister of Public Security. And that would give him enormous power, wouldn’t it? Minister of Public Security. In return, Hitler said he would guarantee Austria’s national sovereignty, its independence. You can’t really negotiate with people like Hitler or people like Putin. The Austrian chancellor agreed. Now, since Inquart was a strong supporter of the Austrian Nazis, but he did have links with other parties, including with Catholic groups, but he was a useful puppet for Hitler. On the 9th of March, 1938, there had been some rioting and the Austria Nazi Party had taken to the streets demanding a German occupation of Austria. Schuschnigg said he would hold a referendum on whether Austria should be unified with Germany or not. Hitler was infuriated.
He sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg the following day, the 11th of March '38, demanding that he now hand over all power to the Nazis. The ultimatum was originally 12 noon, then it was moved forward to two o'clock in the afternoon, by which time Hitler had already signed the order to send German troops over the Austrian border the following morning. The Chancellor Schuschnigg tried hard to find help against these demands of Hitler, not knowing that the German Army was about to invade. France and Britain washed their hands of it, as they were to wash their hands of Czechoslovakia. So that evening of the 11th of March, Schuschnigg resigned. The President of Austria, a man called Miklas, refused to appoint the Nazi Seyss-Inquart as chancellor, but nevertheless, he resigned, and Seyss-Inquart became Chancellor. And at 8:45 that evening, Hitler ordered the invasion to commence at dawn on the 12th of March, 1938. The 8th Army of the German Wehrmacht crossed the border into Austria on that morning of the 12th of March, and as they walked, marched I should say, through Austria, they were greeted with no opposition. The army had been slowed down, the Austrian Army. Instead, they were met by massive waves of support from ordinary Austrians. No suggestion that they were forced to show their support.
This seems to be a genuine welcoming of German troops and what it implied, union with Germany. Because there was no opposition, zero opposition, Hitler crossed the Austrian border that afternoon. True, he had a 4,000 man bodyguard, but he really didn’t need it, but he thought he might need it. And the first large place he came to was Linz, and there he was given an enthusiastic welcome, which surprised him. That was the moment he knew that he could go for full union straightaway. On the 13th of March, says Inquart, aggregated, the Treaty of Saint-Germain, which prohibited unification of Austria and Germany, they simply said we’re not going to abide by it, and Austria and Germany went for full unification. Hitler went through Austria on what you can only describe as a triumphal procession, finally reaching Vienna itself on the 15th of March, '38, and the estimated crowd greeting him on the streets of Vienna was 200,000. He addressed the crowd in which he said, and this is Hitler speaking, “The oldest eastern province of the German people shall be from this point on, the newest bastion of the German Reich.” Huge applause. Now interestingly, he could have stopped there. The Americans, of course, weren’t interested in Europe at this point. They’re in splendid isolation from Europe. Britain and France are weakened, badly. French politics was in turmoil, a phrase you can often use about France in the 20th and the 21st century.
Two days before the German crossed the border to Austria, the entire French government had resigned. In Britain, well, in Britain, our foreign secretary, Anthony Eaton, had resigned because Neville Chamberlain was opening negotiations with Mussolini. There was no one in Chamberlain’s government prepared to say stop to the Germans. So they could’ve taken Austria, which they did, without outside interference, which there was not. And in so doing, had actually completed Bismarck’s unification of Germany from the 1870s. This is pure Bismarck. Bring in all Germans to this new Germany. And that was the view in Britain, certainly. Well, why shouldn’t the Austrian be part of Germany if they want to be? That seemed perfectly valid. Indeed, it was a principle that Woodrow Wilson had laid down at Versailles in 1918 and 1919, that principle of self-determination, and we’re 20 years on now from the restrictions placed by America, France, and Britain on the Union of Austria and Germany, so what’s it all about? Well, it’s about appeasement from England’s point of view, it’s about a divided political elite in France, and it’s about an isolated America. Ring any bells? Hitler did have a referendum, as Schuschnigg had originally wanted, but he arrested Social Democrats, Communists, other political opponents, and Jews, and sent them to concentration camps.
He arrested at least 70,000 people within a couple of days of them taking Austria at the end of the second week of March. Others were too frightened to be seen supporting any other outcome than Anschluss, of union with Germany. The Germans claimed that 99.75% of the votes cast in Austria were in favour of union, and 99.08% in favour of union in Germany. Difficult to say what the real figures might have been, but we are clear that Austria and Austrians welcomed Hitler. This is important for the story of Austria subsequently after 1945. Hitler is now emboldened. If the West loses Ukraine to Putin, will Putin stop or will he be emboldened? Is Putin reading the story of the German successes in 1939 and 1940? Does he imagine that he could have similar success, but avoid the failure of the Germans? The Russians don’t think much of the Germans, they would feel themselves superior. From Austrian annexation, the Germans next turned on Czechoslovakia, emboldened, as I say, by the weak response of France and Britain. But this is a book by Lawrence Rees called “Hitler and Stalin,” again, it’s on my blog. I think this is a very good book. And Rees writes this. “In order to avert European war, in order to avert European war,” that’s the position we are in as we sit here today. “In order to avoid European war, Hitler had been forced to shelve his plans to occupy the whole of Czechoslovakia, and after the Munich conference of September that year, agree merely to taking the bordering area of the Sudetenland, which was largely occupied by ethnic Germans.”
The French and the British, saying, well, if Germans want to join Germany, why should we interfere? “This last point was crucial to his case because Hitler had publicly maintained during the 1930s that he was only pursuing the aims of uniting all German-speaking people under his rule. There was some international sympathy with this position, or at least a lack of enthusiasm to go to war over it. As Sir Frank Roberts of the British Foreign Office put it, quote, 'Public opinion in Britain wouldn’t stand getting involved as an ally of France in a war with Germany and Europe to prevent Germans being attached to other Germans.’ September, 1938. In one year’s time, we are at war.” Rees goes on to say, “And the manner in which Hitler went about this task in March, 1939 tells us a great deal, not just about the brutal way he felt able to conduct his foreign policy, but also about the extent of his contempt for weaker nations.” Hitler simply dismembered the rest of Czechoslovakia after he took the Sudetenland. Give Putin Donbas or the whole of East Ukraine, will that stop him? It is a mistake, in my view, to take the word of somebody like Hitler or Putin. It’s a mistake to think that they will behave honourably as we hope we would behave. You’re not dealing in the same way. I hear no voice like Churchill’s in the 1930s, no political voice at least, giving those warnings.
There have been military voices on both sides of the Atlantic saying similar things, but no political leadership anywhere. France and Britain simply stepped aside as Hitler dismembered Czechoslovakia. This is Lawrence Rees, again writing, and he says, “Slovakia, a territory in the east of Czechoslovakia, had been granted special status by the Czechs after the Munich Agreement, and a Catholic priest have been appointed prime minister of the autonomous Slovak region. But in March ‘39, the Czech president removed him from office. He was concerned that the Slovaks, led by Tiso, would declare independence, something the Nazis were trying to engineer.” Well, it didn’t matter what the Czechs did, they’d lost it. It has gone. Czechoslovakia has gone, and the German war machine begins now to change gear, to up its gears, to move forward at a faster pace. And we know the rest of the story. Just as an aside, one of the reasons for NATO’s existence is one member is attacked, all members are attacked. Ukraine is not a member. Moldova is not a member.
Georgia is not a member. But the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Poland are members. Interestingly, Austria is not a member of NATO, pursuing a position of neutrality, which is what emerges after 1945. I’m not sure how many of you if asked, would’ve known that Austria was not a member of NATO, but it isn’t, so NATO, as a defensive organisation, heavily dependent, the European members of NATO, on American arms and American money since 1945 or whenever, the NATO is nevertheless at a very nasty juncture at this point was Putin to invade the Baltic states. Now, the Baltic states, Latvia and Lithuania and Estonia, are nervous that if he did, the West wouldn’t support them, that we’ve never, ever wondered about being defended, but would Biden be able to take America into a war to defend Estonia? Many Americans would have difficultly I suspect of finding Estonia on the map. Would Johnson with all his bally-ho who have support in Britain for a war in Estonia? The Germans don’t even have enough forces to be able to do much. I guess it will be left to the Poles, and that brings another issue of whether he’s determined to take Poland as well. So we are in difficult times and we’ve been in difficult times before. I’m going to finish this part of my talk. I keep looking at my, I’ve got a clock over here and keep looking at it. I’m all right for time. I’m meant to be moving on at 5:40, so I’ve got time. I want to conclude this part of my talk with a rather typical piece of Churchill’s writing from his book, “The Second World War.”
Now, whatever else you do this evening, please listen to this because it’s so beautifully written and so important, and keep listening right to the end because it’s the last sentence that has the punchline. So this is Churchill writing in the chapter on the rape of Austria. And this is what Churchill says. “Herr von Ribbentrop,” the foreign secretary, “was it this time, about to leave London” to become Foreign Secretary in Germany. “Herr von Ribbentrop was at this time about to leave London to take up his duties as Foreign Secretary in Germany. Mr. Chamberlain,” British Prime Minister, “Mr. Chamberlain gave a farewell luncheon in his honour at No. 10 Downing Street. My wife and I accepted the Prime Minister’s invitation to attend. There were perhaps 16 people present. My wife sat next to Sir Alexander Cadogan.” Cadogan was the civil servant in charge of the Foreign Office. “Almost half-way through the meal, a Foreign Office messenger brought Sir Alexander an envelope. He opened it and was absorbed in the contents. Then he got up, walked 'round to where the Prime Minister was sitting, and gave him the message. Although Cadogan’s demeanour would not have indicated that anything had happened, I could only help noticing the Prime Minister’s evident preoccupation. Presently, Cadogan came back with the paper and resumed his seat. Later, I was told its contents. It said that Hitler had invaded Austria and that the German mechanised forces were advancing fast upon Vienna.
The meal proceeded without the slightest interruption, but quite soon, Mrs. Chamberlain, who had received some signal from her husband, got up, saying, 'Let us all have coffee in the drawing room.’” How British. “Let us all have coffee in the drawing room.” “We trooped in there, and it was evident to me and perhaps to some others, that Mr. and Mrs. Chamberlain wished to bring the proceedings to an end. A kind of general restlessness pervaded the company, and everyone stood about ready to say good-bye to the guests of honour. However, Herr von Ribbentrop and his wife did not seem at all conscious of this atmosphere. On the contrary, they tarried for nearly half an hour, engaging their host and hostess in voluble conversation. At one moment, I came in contact with Frau von Ribbentrop, and in a valedictory vein I said, ‘I hope England and Germany will preserve their friendship.’” Well, that’s a wonderful line, isn’t it really? “She replied, ‘Be careful you don’t spoil it, Mr. Churchill.’ I’m sure they both knew perfectly well what had happened, but thought it was a good manoeuvre to keep the Prime Minister away from his work and the telephone. At length, Mr. Chamberlain said to the Ambassador, ‘I’m sorry, I have to go now to attend to urgent business,’ and without more ado, he left the room. The Ribbentrops lingered on, so that most of us made our excuses and our way home. Eventually, I suppose they did leave.” The last sentence, only Churchill could write this. “Well, this was the last time I saw Herr von Ribbentrop before he was hanged.” It’s wonderful.
Am I alone in wishing leadership somewhere in the Western world was like that? So then, Austria is now part of Germany by the beginning of 1939. And by the end of 1939, Europe is at war, and many Austrians became prominent in the Nazi German regime. Kaltenbrunner was Heydrich’s replacement. Seyss-Inquart himself became guilty of crimes committed by the Nazis in the Netherlands. Globocnik was responsible for building extermination camps in Poland, including Sobibor and Treblinka. Huber became Chief of the Gestapo in much of Austria, including Vienna. Abel was Professor of Racial Biology at the University of Berlin and involved in compulsory sterilisation of orphans, whom the Germans called the Rhineland bastards. Brunner was the Assistant Eichmann, Silberbauer arrested Anne Frank and her family, and there are many more. And, of course, there was Adolph Hitler himself, as we’ve seen, born near the city of Linz on the 20th of April, 1889, in his father’s third marriage. 1889, born in Austria, he’s born a subject of the Emperor Franz Joseph, and he’s born into the Austro-Hungarian Empire. It’s extraordinary to think that, isn’t it? This is a book by Richard Evans called “The Coming of the Third Reich,” another of these massive tomes, and again, on my blog. I look over there because that’s where my computer is, where I was typing the the book list this morning. And this is what Evans says. “The young Hitler did poorly at school and disliked his teachers, but otherwise does not seem to have stood out amongst his fellow pupils. He was clearly unfitted for the regular routine life and hard work of the civil service for which his father had intended him.
After his father’s death in early 1903, he lived in a flat in Linz, where he was looked after by his mother, his aunt, and his younger sister, and dreamed of making a future career as an artist, while spending his time drawing, talking with friends, going to the opera, and reading. But in 1907, two events occurred which put an end to this idle life of fantasising. His mother died of breast cancer and his application to the Viennese Academy of Arts was rejected on the grounds that his painting and drawing were not good enough. He would do better, he was told, if he was to try to become an architect. Hitler lacked the application become an architect however. He tried again to join the Academy of Art and was rejected a second time. Disappointed and emotionally bereft, he moved to Vienna.” That’s where we find him, trying to make a living by doing anything, like shovelling snow outside the Imperial Hotel. It’s always important to know where people who later in life have a major effect on all our lives, what their early lives were like, and one of the most important things is were they born and raised in a loving family with a father and a mother, or did they suffer, particularly boys, with an early death of a mother or an early death of a father? Were they rejected in some way, as Hitler was at the Academy of Arts?
What effect does this have on him, and what effect does it have to see the Habsburgs in all their glory at the very end of their empire in the Imperial Hotel? Well, we can only guess what that might be, but I think our guesses might well be correct. I want to read one final thing from Richard Evans’s book, if I hold it up, “The Third Reich.” “The most important political lesson Hitler derived from his time in Vienna was a deep contempt for the state and the law. There is no reason to disbelieve his later statement that is a follower of Schonerer, he considered the Habsburg monarchy to be the oppressor of the Germanic race, forcing it to mix with others and denying the chance of uniting with Germans in the Reich.” This multiethnic empire was anathema to Hitler. “If the species itself is in danger of being oppressed or utterly eliminated,” Hitler wrote, “the question of legal is reduced to a subordinate rule.” Evans rights, “Racial self-preservation was a higher principle for Hitler than legality, which could often be no more than a cloak for tyranny. Any means were justified in this struggle, moreover, the rotten state of the Habsburgs, as Hitler described it, was completely dominated by parliamentarianism, a political system for which Hitler acquired an abiding contempt, by spending a great deal of his time in the Public Library of the Austrian Parliament, where parties of rival nationalities shouted and screamed at each other, each in its own language, and prevented anything much being achieved.” He wanted a pure German nation. “He conceived a special hatred for the Czechs who were especially disruptive. It was Schonerer’s mistake to try and reach his goal through Parliament, thought Hitler.
Hitler concluded that only a strong leader, directly elected by the people could get anything done.” But not at that stage do we believe that he thought he could be such a leader. The Habsburgs, of course, were around in 1938, as they are today. The head of the House of Habsburg was Emperor Charles and Empress Zita’s eldest son, Otto von Habsburg. And he denounced Nazism. And this is what he said. “I absolutely reject Nazi fascism for Austria. This un-Austria movement promises everything to everyone, but really intends the most ruthless subjugation of the Austrian people. The people of Austria will never tolerate that our beautiful Fatherland should become an exploited colony and that the Austrian should become a man of second category.” Therefore, Otto Habsburg opposed the Anschluss. In 1938, he requested the Austrian Chancellor Schuschnigg to resist Nazi Germany and support oh, excuse me, and supported an international intervention. He offered to return from exile to take over the reigns of government so that the Nazis might be repelled. Interestingly, one historian has written, according, According, I’m sorry, according to Joe Warren, “Austrian Jews were among the strongest supporters of a Habsburg restoration since they believed the dynasty would give the nation sufficient resolve to stand up to the Third Reich.”
And you’ve been hearing stuff from Trudy, and you’ll hear more stuff from Trudy, about that link between the Habsburgs and Jews, and here, the Jews are supporting Otto von Habsburg. He later went on to marry a Jew, incidentally. Let me just finish what I want to say about this. There were supporters of Otto, monarchists in other words, in Austria, but Hitler had them rounded up. There was no chance that Otto would come back. Hitler gave the order that if any German soldier came across Otto von Habsburg, they were to shoot him dead. No trial, just shoot him. Two of his cousins, sons of the late martyred, assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand, were indeed arrested in Vienna by the Gestapo and sent to Dachau. Many of you know that Otto himself was involved in helping around 50,000 Austrians, including tens of thousands of Austrian Jews, flee the country at the outbreak of the Second World War. He left for exile in America. It takes a lot to get rid of the Habsburgs. Also, he’s to go on to become a member of the European Parliament of the European Union. One of the interesting things, this is a sort of one of those questions you have in quizzes, was Austria one of the war nations between 1939 and ‘45? Answer no, because it was no longer a nation as part of Germany. Remember that? It’s quite useful. After 1945, it’s not me, it’s those nasty Germans that made us do it. But I just read you a list of at least some very high ranking Austrian Nazis.
And then, of course, we can add into that story that the majority of the bureaucrats who implemented the Final Solution were Austrian. Austrians only amounted to 8% of the German population of the two countries, but 13% of the SS were Austrian, 40% of the staff, and listen to this, 75% of the commanders at death camps were Austrian. 75% of the commanders at death camps were Austrian. The largest concentration camp in Austria was Mauthausen, with more than 50 sub camps. Mass murder was practised at Hartheim Castle near Vienna, where involuntary euthanasia took place. And in another clinic in Vienna, more than 700 handicapped children were murdered. And some of you would have heard my story that I went to an adult education conference in Austria, in a very nice estate, and money had been left to run meetings to promote peace and adult education figured in that, in the Austrian parliament’s judgement , and there were annual meetings near Salzburg it was, and I went and I thought this is a marvellous place. I went for a walk before breakfast on the second day, and I went all around the lake. It was absolutely magnificent.
And I said that to my opposite number who was Viennese and a socialist. And I said, “What a wonderful place this is. You’re so lucky to be able to run courses in such a wonderful, wonderful.” He said, “I hate coming here.” I said, “Why do you hate coming?” And he said, “Well, you don’t know, do you?” I said, “No, nobody’s told me, I don’t know.” He said, “Well, this is where the Nazis brought and used blonde Germanic women to give birth to blonde Germanic sons.” It was a birthing factory. After that, the lake didn’t seem quite so beautiful. Interestingly, the owners of it pre-war, were Jews. They left, they got out. I think they went to America. They never would go back. But was an act of extraordinary, an extraordinary act in the name of peace to give that estate, to give it to the Austrian government. But it’s the story that haunts me, it’s not that one, it’s the story of this horrendous birthing machine that it was. Austria’s hands, I’m trying to say, are not clean in the Second World War. 150,000 Austrians served in the Waffen-SS. Another 800,000 Austrians served in German regimens, so there were no Austrian regimens. And what of the end?
In September, 1944, American bombing rates became very serious indeed on Vienna. It’s clear by September '44, that the war, if it had not been clear before, that is coming to an end, and it’s coming to an end for Austria. As the Red Army on the ground, the Americans are in the air, as the Red Army on the ground, advances towards Austria, getting closer and closer, and indeed, in February, 1945, they had captured Budapest, the capital of Hungary, Hitler announces that Austria must be, sorry, that Austria, and Vienna in particular, that Vienna must be defended to quote, “the last stone.” In Steven Beller’s book, which I used last week, “A Concise History of Austria,” Beller writes this. “The German forces obeyed their orders from Hitler. And so the week-long battle of Vienna from the 6th to the 13th of April '45 was bloody and destructive. Even after this, German forces, including many Austrians, made a last stand at the march field. By the 8th of May when American and Russian troops met on the ends, most hostilities in eastern Austria were over, but fire fights persisted. Hitler had committed suicide in his Berlin bunker on the 30th April.
Admiral Donitz had signed German’s unconditional surrender on the 7th of May. And then one final piece from Steve Beller’s "Concise History of Austria,” just got time to share this with you. “Thus, it was that Renner, the pre-1914 Austro-Marxist and First Chancellor of the Austrian Republic, endorsed the Anschluss in 1938, but long since retired from public life, roused himself on the 2nd of April, 1945 to plead with the Russian invading forces, and soon found himself agreeing to set up a provisional national government for an independent Austria.” What? He’s a Marxist. This is all happening all over again. In 1938, Hitler appoints a Nazi. In 1945, the Russians appoint a Marxist. “And soon, Renner found himself agreeing to set up a provisional national government for an independent Austria, which was recognised by the Soviet occupying authorities on the 27th of April, 1945.” Stalin was already moving into a post-war world, that Austria is going to be a satellite with a puppet, with a puppet chancellor. It’s going to be the same as Hungary, the other half of Austria-Hungarian Empire. Beller goes on to say, “Austria, as an independent nation state, was going to have a second chance, not only at becoming a functioning polity, but also at creating cogent identity.” Really? With the Russians having put in?
“The Hitler time had destroyed for Austrians the option of becoming, once again, German. Could Austrians now, with little geographical legerdemain and some help from the allies, become Austrian?” And this takes us into the first clash of the post-war, Cold War world between the West and between the East, between America and Russia in blunt terms. Austria’s future is now in the balance. Will it become part of the new Russian Empire of Stalin post '45, or will it become a Western European democracy, protected and supported by the United States? And Beller used the word legerdemain. You don’t see the rabbit until the magician produces it. How is Austria, how can it come out of this period smelling of roses? Well, sorry, folks. You’ll have to tune in, same channel, same time next week to find out the rest of the story. Thanks so much for listening. I’m sure I’ve got of questions. Right. Oh, I’m glad you all recognise my tie was meant to be in support of the Ukraine.
William, William.
[William] Yes.
Thank you for an excellent presentation. Before you take your questions, I’d just like to remind all our participants that tonight at seven o'clock UK time, Robert Fox will be talking about Ukraine and the global crisis, and an update.
That would be great.
Thanks so much, over to you.
Q&A and Comments:
- Now, I love these questions because half the time you answer your own questions, which is great. Martin asked, sorry, Martin said, “Angela Merkel may be better than what we’ve got.” Ellie replies, “Haha. She prepared the ground for this debacle. Well, to answer in 5,000 words, I think I agree with Ellie. This is a rather British comment.
Tony said, "The Ukrainians voted for a mixture between Benny Hill, who was an English comedian, and Boris, Boris Johnson, and got instead, Winston Churchill.” By God, they have. What a man is Zelensky.
Q: “Calling for Churchill, FDR suggests calling for war now. Are you ready for that?”
A: No, I think Churchill and FDR were greater than that. I think they would have found some way of dealing, and it may be, we don’t want to think about it, but it may be we have to be tougher, and maybe we do have to do what the Ukrainians are asking, with a no-fly zone. I was phoned up by a friend of mine who is an academic, was an academic, who taught British Naval Officers, and he actually is in favour of a no-fly zone. I am actually not, but I just would like someone who was, what was Churchill’s words? Resolute. And I don’t see our lot, our lot, Western leaders, being resolute. I see FDR and Churchill as being resolute. They were, and of course, they often disagreed, but they worked well in tandem.
“Better to deal with World War II,” says Joan, “than the current war.” Yes, but we have to live in this world.
Oh, Jackie, I didn’t know that, well done. Today is International Women’s Day. I did know that because I got an email, of all things, from the supply of cheese. I get my cheese from rural Devon, and the plug this time was Women of Cheese, and I said to my daughter, “What on earth are they on about?” Because she was here with my youngest grandson, and my daughter said, “Well, don’t you know it’s International Women’s Day?” Well, I didn’t, and I do now. But Jackie says, “Today’s International Women’s Day, and I found out that the originator was Theresa Malkiel in New York in 1909. She was born in Ukraine.” Is that fantastic?
“This proves how alone Israel will be without a strong army.” Yeah, absolutely. In Europe, it’s clear whatever happens over this crisis, that we can no longer depend upon an American military umbrella. We know in Britain, that America did not come into the war when we might well have lost it in 1940, even though they were to come in later, or even though we had lend lease. But we have to think about the defence of Europe, and that’s why I’m uneasy about being outside of the European Union, because it looks as though in some states, the European Union may form a European Union Army and we won’t be part of that. And is America going to save Britain? No, of course, it won’t.
No, I bought the tie specially, Margaret.
Q: Would I repeat the address of my blog?
A: Willingly. Www. Talkhistorian, one word, T-A-L-K historian, one word, com. You can even put then a forward slash and the word blog, and it will take you straight there. Www.talkhistorian.com/blog.
Oh, thank you, Carly. That’s a colleague of mine. Actually, the title wasn’t meant to be World War II, it was meant to be Austria in World War II, so thank you nevertheless, that’s very sweet of you.
Q: “Do you think that 50 years hence we were talking and referring to Putin as we today think of Hitler?”
A: Possibly. Or possibly, Nicholas II. If the army refuses to fight and the civilian population rises in disgust because of lack of food, so he may turn out to be Hitler or he may turn out to be Nicholas II. Hopefully, Nicholas II.
Peter, you’re right. “Resolute action sounds good, but Churchill didn’t have to face the prospect of nuclear annihilation.” Well, it’s a question of playing bluff, isn’t it? If the information the politicians have from the spooks, from the intelligence agencies are good enough, they might try a bluff. The information needs to be are we in contact with potential, with potential overthrows of Putin, like a Russian General? Do we know what Putin’s state of mind is? Do we know what the state of health is? I imagine that in Washington and in London, and definitely, I think, in Jerusalem, there is that knowledge, and hopefully, the politicians will act upon that knowledge. I wish I knew what the next step was. I’m not president of America, but I don’t think he knows. I’m not prime minister of Britain, but I don’t think he knows. I don’t think anybody knows, but we have to be firm. That’s absolutely clear.
“Putin wouldn’t have tried this under Trump.” Well, Ellie, I don’t agree with what you might think about Trump. I think Trump was as off the wall as Putin.
I don’t agree either, Ellie. I think a lot of people are saying that, but I agree with you.
I think having somebody like Trump with the power to press a button is frightening, but let us be clear. The American senior military would not have followed Trump. That is absolutely clear.
Do you think, William, William, just off the record, do you think that Trump’s relationship with Putin, do you think that maybe he emboldened Putin?
Well, in Britain, we are worried about the connections of our prime minister and leading members of the government with Russian oligarchs, and through them, to Putin, and I think we can think the same about Trump. I would not trust the present government in Britain as I wouldn’t trust Trump, and I think both were being played by Putin and had been played by Putin. But, look, everyone has their own opinion.
Good!
No one has to agree with me.
I know.
If I’m asked, you’re all big boys and big girls, and you can make your own minds up. If I’m asked, I will say what I think, but that is different than the history I’ve been doing. The history I’ve done for you, I’ve tried, always tried desperately, to be as accurate as I can. If there are mistakes, then it’s because Homer has nodded and I’ve made a mistake. But when it’s an opinion, that’s different. An opinion is an opinion, and as it’s not for children and it’s for adults, then I don’t have to be careful. You know, obviously you know when I’m expressing an opinion, and you can then accept or reject the opinion. What you can’t do is to reject facts. Facts are facts. Now, neither in the States nor in Britain do we have sufficient facts about the British government at the moment or Trump in the past and their links with Putin. We simply have, we have a report to a government, a report on Russian connections. This has not been published. What a surprise.
Yes, I was wondering, we echoed that. These are just opinions.
Yes.
And personal opinions, so please do not take offence. You know, we are just–
I’m glad I’m doing this on Zoom, Wendy, no one could throw anything at me.
[Wendy] No, no, no, no. No, and it’s also as you said–
Somebody said– Marlene said, “I may have missed you stating that the Austrians and their predecessor voted to join Germany.” I think you did. I think I definitely said that. This is the 90%, 99% odd vote in both Austria and in Germany.
Oh, a friend was, this is Shirley, “A friend was making a film at the hotel,” presumably the hotel I was talking about, the Imperial, “30 years after the end of the war, and they put up Nazi flags outside. It was obviously a scene being filmed. To their horror, the public passing all stopped and clapped.” Oh God. Oh God. Oh dear. Well, this is part of the Austrian story. We will return to this, the neo-fascism.
Q: Is there, Margaret, “Is there not a parallel between Hitler’s invasion of Poland with Putin in Ukraine?”
A: No, I think it’s, I think the connection is Hitler’s invasion of Czechoslovakia and the West doing nothing, and then too late to do anything when it was Poland. That I think is the parallel, and the question is, is Putin prepared to stop at Ukraine? Will he advance on Georgia? Will he advance on Moldova, and heaven help us, will he advance on a NATO country, Poland, or the three Baltic states, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia? We don’t know the answer to that.
Oh, thank you, Monique and Danny. “The late Simon Wiesenthal insisted on holding his 90th or 95th birthday party at the Imperial, specifically because it had Hitler’s favourite hotel. "To emphasise,” sorry, I won’t attempt to read the Hebrew, “To emphasise,” you can read it for yourselves, “that the Jews survived his Final Solution.” What a fantastic thing, I didn’t know that. This is the wonder of adult education, that the tutor learns so much from the students. Oh, yes, yes. Jonathan, absolutely right. I’m going to do a book list about Ukraine, and the book you recommend, I should put on it.
Jonathan writes, “For a comprehensive background in history of these areas, I recommend "Bloodlands” by Timothy Snyder. It’s very expensive to buy in Britain. I don’t know, Jonathan, whether or British or American, or whether the book is cheaper in America. Now, Snyder is an American, so I guess it’s cheaper, but there’s a paperback coming out next month called “Bloodlands.” It’s the history of what you might describe as Central Eastern Europe at this period. Snyder is a fantastically interesting historian, makes you really think. The book is “Bloodlands,” and in Britain, it’s published next month at about something like 18 quid. But the hardback, oh, there is a Kindle version, which presumably is available to everybody who’s listening to this. The Kindle version is much, much cheaper. I don’t use Kindle personally, I can’t cope with it.
Judy says, “John Mearsheimer also elaborates on the historical fault of the West for the mess in Ukraine. Makes for very interesting reading.”
Esther says, “The psychology of war, I think, has changed because of the nuclear power in both USA and Russia, and it makes the American president proceed carefully.” Yes, but we’ve always had this view, haven’t we? MAD. You remember the magazine when we were young, called “MAD?” Mutual assured destruction, which kept us from war. Well, we’ve always thought that having nuclear weapons in the hands of people like North Korea, for example, that that doctrine goes out of the room, but no one thought it would go out of the room with Russia. But it has.
Naomi Hailey says, “About 10 years ago I was in Vienna, and our group visited the new inverted Commerce Holocaust Memorial. On three sides of the square sculpture, it said in Hebrew.” I’ve not got the rest of it. I’ve not got the rest of the… Oh, sorry about that. She says, “The Holocaust Memorial said something like, 'In memory of the 50,000 Jews murdered during the Nazi years.’”
Q: “Did the German Army know what they were supposed to be doing or where they just brainwashed like Putin’s?”
A: No, they weren’t brainwashed. And anyhow, Austria was a perfectly, it was a perfectly logical step to take. They are not invading a country that doesn’t want to be invaded. Let’s us be quite clear about that. They’re invading a country that wants to be invaded. Austria had not had any, Austria couldn’t come to terms with the loss of the Habsburg Empire. There had never been a country called Austria, and now they’re given an opportunity of joining the Third Reich, the German Empire, and they rush at it.
Oh, thank you, Anita has written my blog up on, that’s very nice of you, thank you.
Q: “Why did the people of Vienna?”
A: Because they wanted to be German and because there was a lot of Nazis in Austria anyhow, and because people simply believed in the propaganda of this man and this machine.
Arlene says, “I think Putin looked at past men who wanted to rule the world, i.e. Napoleon and Hitler. They could not take Russia. Putin already has Russia, notes that the West is not run by strong people, and decides to rule the world one nation at a time. He may have trouble with China, but it does not bode well for democratic countries worldwide.” This is part of a much, much bigger question, and that is the question, for me anyhow, of the crisis in liberal democracies. I’ve asked Trudy to think about letting me do an hour sometime or 40 minutes and lots of questions about the crisis in liberal democracy in America and in Britain, but it’s a wider crisis than that. But probably, America and Britain, well, it’s the one that I know most about.
Tony says, “John Bolton on BBC today was pure gold. We are at move 25 of a chess game when we should have played differently from move five.” Oh, I think that’s very clever.
“In Ukraine, there is opposition to the Russian invasion,” says Marilyn. Yes, there is.
Q: “Why are the countries you mentioned not members of NATO?”
A: Because in the Cold War, Ukraine was part of Russia itself. Moldova is part of the Eastern Marxist area. In the Cold War, the dividing line is between the Warsaw Pact countries led by Russia and NATO led by the Americans. And so, if they were there, having broken away from Russia, Moldova, and Ukraine, and Georgia, then as independent countries, they can make a choice. Their choice is they do not want to be part of Russia because Russia is not the democracy that we thought it might be under Gorbachev and Yeltsin, it is another autocracy under Putin, therefore they want to be, because they are, well, however you define the term, they are democratic and they want to be part of the West. That I think is the answer. Is Switzerland and Sweden, yes. Serbia, yes, no, yes, Serbia’s not in NATO, I don’t think. I’d have to check that. The Switzerland certainly, Swiss are always in independent of everything, and Sweden and Finland are not members. Now, Finland’s story I will mention next week or the week after, as the Finnish story is very similar to the Austrian story, and I usually find that lots of people don’t know the story post 1945 in either country. I went to Finland twice for adult education, and I got educated about Finland in no uncertain way by Finnish adult educators.
Ellie, you’re quite right. Don’t ever rely upon my pronunciation for anything. My pronunciation is like Churchill’s French pronunciation. It is appalling. I have to say, I’ve never done German.
“As I’m trying to say,” says Naomi, “the English and the Hebrew both say the same thing, but the German said we would like to answer this question.” I lost it again. I’m sorry, Naomi, I’m losing the thread with yours. I’m terribly sorry.
“Be specific about what you are suggesting Biden, Johnson, and other leaders do.” Yes, I think they have to seriously consider a no-fly zone. I think they have to work out whether at what point Putin is bluffing. If they don’t think so, they have to do something else. Do we not have CIA, MI6 agents on the ground in Moscow that can take him out? Do we not have any sources, I’m sorry, resources in the Russian military that have turned or could be turned? We’re informed that the FSB, the successors of the KGB, informed their opposite numbers in the Ukraine of the three attempts that were made last week on the President’s life, the President of Ukraine’s life. They’re our opposition. Should we have a hit and get the opposition leader out of prison? There’s a number of things we seriously have to do because we don’t want to be sat here by Christmas with Moldova, Georgia, Poland, Lavia, Lithia, and Estonia in Russian hands. Do we? Do we? At what point do we draw the line? There has to be a line drawn.
Shelley Cann says, “Hitler’s red carpet quote in the Imperial Hotel, I’d posit is a self-serving statement made to show his steely intentions early in the game.” Absolutely right. When people write after the events, you do have a right to question. “What of Kurt Waldheim?” Absolutely. We shall come to Kurt Waldheim in due course, don’t worry.
Oh, Jonathan, what a wonderful story. The story goes at Ribbentrop said to Churchill, “that next time, the Italians will be with us,” and Churchill replied, “It seemed fair as we had to have them last time.” Because oh, that’s wonderful. No, I’d never heard that it. The Italians were on the Allied Side in World War I. I’ll tell you about Otto in due course when we get there.
Oh, Ellie, “When we worked at the claims conference, we had access to the Austrian archives, which showed clearly that Hitler was given massive amounts of detailed information on the Austrian populace before he invaded. They had all big Jewish bank accounts within days of the official Anschluss.” Thank you so much, this is fascinating. We could go on forever. Well, Churchill couldn’t do anything about the invasion of Poland, he wasn’t prime minister. He was only First Lord of the Admiralty and there was nothing Britain could do about Poland. It was too far away and there was no way could get there. Roosevelt. Roosevelt is constrained by public opinion in America, particularly German American public opinion, and he didn’t want to go to war on a majority verdict in Congress. He wanted unanimity, which he only got when the Japanese bombed at Pearl Harbour. He thought that if he went into war with an America divided, it would be disastrous. They were both extraordinarily interesting men.
Q: “Was not the President of Austria shot for disagreeing with the German takeover and died within eight hours without being allowed a priest?”
A: Yup. War is dreadful. And Kurt Waldheim, I will talk about Kurt Waldheim, I promise. I should really begin to stop, I think, as we’ve got another talk coming at seven. Shall I do one more?
Oh, sorry, I must read Eva’s. Oh and oh, this is horrifying, but I must read Eva’s. “I was born in the Mauthausen concentration camp on the 29th of April, 1945. The US Army liberated the camp on the 5th of May. My mother weighed five stone and I weighed three pounds.” There’s nothing one can say. I’ll stop at that point. Thank you, Eva, for sharing that. Thank you so much. I’m going to stop there.
Okay. Have I got anyone in the chair? Yeah, I’ve got Wendy.
Thank you.
Hi!
Thanks, William. Thank you, Eva. Thank you, William. Thank you to all our participants, and of course, thank you to Lauren, and hopefully we will see you in half an hour. And I’ll see you tomorrow, William, looking forward.
You’ll see me, you’ll see me tomorrow. Booted and spurred, as they say. Bye. Bye-bye.
Good.
[William] Bye-bye.