Jeremy Rosen
Sex Abuse in the Charedi World
Jeremy Rosen - Challenging Conversations: Sex Abuse in the Charedi World
- Hi, hi, hi, good morning. Good morning, everybody. Jeremy, I really just want to thank you for turning on a dime, and for us going in a completely different direction. So, I just want to say to our audience, just to say to our participants, I felt it very, very important for us to have, to go out, to start this new track, because I’m very often under attack. I get emails from many of our participants if they don’t agree with different points of view. And I have absolutely no agenda here whatsoever. I’m neither left wing nor right wing. I’m neither Republican nor Democrat. I don’t, I have my opinion, but I’m not fixed in my opinion. I’m very open to listening to different points of view. And I felt that we really, you know, I sit as the president of the Guggenheim listening to work, and I’m listening to this very, very negative narrative, watching my board often being attacked on other boards, and then I’m listening to the news. And really, I really often feel like I’m in a washing machine myself. So it’s very, very, very important we have created a safe environment. We are a family. We have to understand where we’re coming from, and I wanted to provide a platform where we could have challenging conversations, where all of you please sit and listen with an open mind, come in. I’d like you to discuss if we need to have these discussions. It’s very, very important that we have these discussions now with our children, with our friends, with our family. I really want to introduce thought-provoking, without being, not trying to provoke, or upset anybody.
So, please take from a stance of us coming in with good intentions, you know, having these difficult discussions, but with the intention of stimulating dialogue. So Jeremy, I thank you very, very much for taking the baton and doing this, because you’re putting yourself on the line, but sometimes we have to do that. And I think that’s what leadership is about. So, today we are going to talk about the abuse in the Charedi community, explain how and why, and what is going on there, and why it is being called out, and sometimes why it’s not being called out. And I really want to say that this is really a microcosm of the greater macrocosm, in general. So Jeremy, over to you, and so we will start today, this series of lectures today with, yeah, with the Charedi community, thanks so much.
- Thank you very much, Wendy. And that was a beautiful introduction, and that’s very much how I feel, you know. I was brought up in a family in which we were encouraged to look at things from different points of view. My father who was, some of you may remember, an outstanding rabbi, insisted that I get an education that swung from one extreme to another, as he put it. A little bit like the pendulum in a clock. He wanted the best of the secular education for me, and the best of the religions education for me, so that I could combine them, and keep time in the middle. So I’m very interested in having an open-minded discussion about any issue, and I like to think I’m not dogmatic. I have my passions, but intellectually, I’m completely open. And therefore, in a situation like this where we are faced with a horrific crisis of sex abuse, and we know that this is a universal problem, and we know that every single religion, every single political party, everybody has suffered one way or another through this, male and female, sometimes, sexual abuse, which has suddenly come to light, but in fact, it’s been brewing beneath the surface for a long time. This latest scandal in the Charedi world in Israel involves a particular gentleman called Walder, who was the most important bestselling author of children’s books, trying to give a moral, ethical background to stories to the religious world, based on the ethics of the Torah, based on morality and consideration.
He had a practise of counselling people, and advising people on all these issues, and he totally betrayed everybody. So why, and what? Even more important, a few months previously, there was a man in Israel called Meshi-Zahav, who was a Charedi man who founded the most amazing organisation called Zaka, who wherever there was a tragedy, or a crisis in Israel, an attack, death, he and Charedi volunteers would turn up to deal with all the issues that that involved of support. And he too was found guilty of rampant sexual abuse over an extended period of time. And when this came to light, unfortunately, he tried to commit suicide. It didn’t work. But in the case of Walder, he did commit suicide. And not a few days later, but one of his victims, a beautiful young lady, she committed suicide, because she’d been abused by him. And this is the issue. She was so profoundly shocked by the fact that so many people in the Charedi religious community rallied round Walder, gave him a wonderful, amazing burial sendoff, praised him as a saint and a wonderful person, who had been brought down by evil gossiping, lashon hara, and the secular press. As I say, this is a universal problem. It’s a problem that, in general, we should deal with some other time of why charismatic people seem so prone to this. We won’t talk about the religious world. We can talk, if you’re following the press, people like Epstein and Maxwell. But, this is a universal problem.
And it may be a problem of male in relation to female, but there have been female cases. It may be a problem of the nature of religious authority, but it happens in non-religious authorities. So how are we to make reasonable sense, and deal with this topic in a rational, open-minded way without jumping to conclusions? And that’s what I want to do today. And part of this involves trying to understand the Charedi community. That so-called Charedi community, like any community, has good and bad, intelligent and not so intelligent, different people, different ideas. And so it’s terribly important not to tar a whole community, but there are certain aspects to it that one can look at, examine, and explain how this situation comes about. In the response to Walder, one section of the Charedi community said, this is typical of the secular world. The secular world is just looking for reasons to blacken and besmirch the religious world. So on our platform, we have a primary role to protect our community from the attacks that are coming from the outside. Now, such an attitude can only come from a position of insecurity, a defensive position. And they say it is forbidden to go to the non-Jewish, or the secular world to solve our problems because they will solve them from their angle, and not ours. And we are responsible. One of the biggest sins in the Torah is gossip, lashon hara, telling tales.
And journalism is all about telling tales. And therefore, we must distance ourselves from this insidious influence that permeates our society, and our world. And what about the family of the man who now has been besmirched in the press? What about them? We’ve got to support them. And the result was that great rabbis turned up to the family in mourning, to the burial and the family in mourning, visited them, but initially, not one of them thought of visiting the families of the abused, those who had suffered. How does that sort of thing come about? And as I say, the Charedi world is divided, dramatically divided between one half which say, this is terrible. We must remove every book this man has written. We must destroy them. This is a scandal. It is demeaning us, and it’s demeaning our society. And this is something we have to deal with, and we’ve got to pay more attention to these issues. And the other side, which says, hold on. Stop trying to blacken the Charedi world. The details of this is that a journalist in Haaretz, several months ago, did some research and discovered that there were 20, 30 names of people who had, at different stages, been abused by this man who was held in great respect, who was raking in millions because of the greatness of the books that he had written. And he tried to get a response, and he got no response. And not only that, but he was attacked for muckraking. How dare you muckrake? In the end, there was a court convened of orthodox rabbis who took all his charges, who went and called these witnesses to appear before them, and talk about their experiences.
And on the basis of this, they found their evidence absolutely compelling, and they demanded that Walder appeared before them in order to answer the charges. Walder’s response, initially, was to ignore them. Then to say, if I’ve only done anything wrong, it was under pressure, difficult times, and you shouldn’t take it too seriously, too literally. But finally, when the bet din made their findings public, that was when he committed suicide. And then, in response to his burial, in response to the praise and the glorification, this is when the young lady committed suicide. She was so shocked that nobody had thought of supporting her. And these were the sad events. Now, how does the Charedi community come to be who they are? First of all, let us remember that most of the Orthodox Jews of Eastern Europe, most of the, shall we say, founders of the Charedi movement were people who grew up either under rabid antisemitism, under secularism, under communism, under regimes that were blatantly corrupt and dishonest, where you could not trust them in any way whatsoever. And this built into them a certain wariness, and a certain feeling that we can’t trust the non-Jewish world. Now, this defensiveness, you might argue, has been part of our tradition for a long time. We all have chips on our shoulders. I remember as a little child, seeing pictures of the Holocaust and saying, why would people possibly want to kill me if I would’ve been there?
And why did nobody in the world seem to care about this, or do anything about it? What’s wrong with the rest of the world? And this kind of mental attitude was there before the Holocaust. But think of how deeply ingrained it was after the Holocaust. So this defensive mechanism within the Charedi world, suspicion of the outside, is endemic, almost built in. Then after World War II, the Charedi movement reestablished itself, and in the state of Israel, began to adjust to a new situation. Bear in mind that when we talk about the term Charedi, which literally means trembling before God out of our religious commitment, we’re talking about a very complex group of people. Some of them are what we call Hasidim, belong to the Hasidic network. Some of them are what we call Lithuanian, the Litvaks, the Misnagdim, the opposition network. Then, in addition, you have Sephardim. You have Jews from the Orient who never experienced the Holocaust, although some of them did. Certainly those living in Thessaloniki in Greece, in Rhodes, in certain parts, but not in the same way as the Ashkenazi world did. But nevertheless, they also suffered ‘cause they also lived under regimes where they were humiliated, and second class citizens, and where the non-Jewish world was a dangerous world. You had to navigate it, you have to find a way of dealing with it.
But they were always second class citizens, and always subject to humiliation. And these different disparate groups all came together in the state of Israel in order to find a way of rebuilding Jewish life. Because remember, religious life was all but wiped out, all but wiped out at this period of Jewish life. And when they arrived in Israel, they arrived to a state that was a completely secular state, completely secular. Not only was it secular, but many of its institutions were Marxist, were communists. And their dream was to found a new Zionist state which would reject the religion of the past, which they saw as the religion of the ghetto, and establish a new ideal socialist paradise in the land of Israel, and start the Jewish people anew. That was part of the secular Zionist ideology. Interestingly enough, this battle had begun before the state of Israel, because before the state of Israel, there had always been very religious Jews living in Israel, either in Jerusalem, Tzfat, and other places. This was called the Yishuv, the Old Yishuv. The old settlement of Charedi Jews who looked Charedi, were Charedi, and kept their own uniform, their own atmosphere, their own little enclaves, their little ghettos, and they feared the arrival of these secular Zionists, these women in in shorts, and sleeveless shirts, and flaunting their liberal and free lifestyle. This was a massive threat to them, which reminded them of the threat of secularism in Europe, and in America, for that matter. So there was always this tension. And the first chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, was a magnificent, wonderful Charedi man. A tolerant, open-minded, beautiful poet, a magnificent philosopher, and a thinker, and a mystic.
And he tried desperately to bring the two sides together. And his argument was these secular pioneers, they’re helping rebuild the Jewish home. What do you care how they worship God? What should matter is they’re helping the Jewish people, and that’s what really is the issue here. So this rivalry, and he was more or less banned from the Charedi world because of it, and he died before the Second World War. So this tension between the two communities in Israel was there before the massive arrival, after 1948. And the Charedi world decided, after the Holocaust, the most important thing we have to do is to survive. The most important thing we have to do is to preserve our tradition. We have to rebuild everything that was lost. We have to replace all those great rabbis, and that scholarship, and that learning of 1,000 years in Europe that has been obliterated, that most Jews didn’t know about, living out in the West. And this commitment led them to two passionate ideals. Passionate ideal number one was we must devote ourselves to Torah above anything else. Motion number two, fundamental number two, we must do whatever we can to exclude the secular world that has betrayed us. And the best way we can do this is by sitting and studying, and by having big families, and having as many children as we possibly can.
And for example, there is one Holocaust survivor I know who survived the Holocaust, who came to live in Israel, who has recently died with over 100 great great grandchildren. It’s an amazing achievement. So this was their determination. And when it came to setting up the state of Israel, there was a problem, because the new government under Ben-Gurion was overwhelmingly a secular government. And yet, Ben-Gurion wanted somehow to keep the religious in line. Now, some of those religious were what we call, at the time was called the Mizrachi Party. You might call it the Nationalists today. They were called moderate, they were Zionists, pro-Zionist, wanted to work the land and settle the land, and they entered in, excuse me. They entered into an agreement with Ben-Gurion that Ben-Gurion would preserve certain Jewish values in a secular state. Now, Ben-Gurion was under pressure. So when it came, for example, to a declaration of Israeli independence, the secular said, don’t bring God into this. We don’t want religion here. Keep God out, at all costs. The religious said, the moderate religious, look, at least have some reference to God. And in the end, Ben-Gurion compromised. He compromised with a famous phrase, we call on Tsur Israel, the Rock of Israel, which satisfied the religious, and it satisfied the secular, because when they asked Ben-Gurion what he meant, he said, well, I meant the army, Tzahal, that’s what I meant.
I didn’t mean God. But Ben-Gurion made certain concessions. He made certain concessions to the moderates that Shabbat and religious days would be adhered to. That in the army, kashrut would be adhered to. That there wouldn’t be public transport on Shabbat. And that we would allow the religious rabbinate to run personal status affairs. Who is a Jew, who can get married, how do you get divorced? And he did not separate, as I wish he had, state from religion. And that’s how the compromise began. And another compromise began when he met a man called the Chazon Ish, Rav Karelitz, the greatest leader of the Lithuanian Orthodox community in Bnei Brak. And Karelitz begged him for two things. Number one, those who are studying Torah full-time as their career should be allowed to go on studying full-time as their career, Torah, Torah. And they would have an exemption in the same way that university students could get exemption from going into the army if they were in the middle of their studies. And the second concession was that women would not have to serve in the army. There was no requirement, as such, that it was forbidden for men to stay from the army, but just that those who wanted to study should be exempt. And there were about 400 people involved in this in 1949, 400. Well, things changed over time, but the first thing that happened that affected the Charedi world was the arrival of vast numbers of Sephardic Jews from the Muslim world, who came to Israel, who had not been touched so much by, shall we say, the intellectual enlightenment of Europe. Were very traditional, and were very devoted to the traditions.
And when they were brought to the secular Israel, the secular Israel tried very hard to persuade them to give up their religion. And to this day, many Sephardim from Yemen, from other parts, Morocco, the East, all of them felt that they were treated very, very badly when they first arrived, and were humiliated because of their tradition. And this came to the fore over an issue called , which basically, literally means autopsies. The Ministry of Health was in the hands of a left wing party called Mapam. Mapam needed bodies for medical education, and they would take bodies who had died in the hospitals, and hand them over to the medical students. Now, this offended an orthodox position. An orthodox position was, yes, you may have autopsies if it’s to save life, or if there’s a crime and we need to know what’s what, but otherwise bodies have to be treated with respect. And even after an autopsy, the organs and everything else should be handed over, and buried in a proper way. The left wing thought this was superstitious religious nonsense, and they ignored it. And so the religious had to start campaigning, and fighting for certain respect for the dead.
And this led to a kind of a standoff between the very Orthodox, no matter where they came from, Hasidics, Sephardi, whatever it was, against the secular state. When I went to study in Jerusalem in the 1950s, there was a huge, big demonstration because the religious people in Jerusalem did not want a public swimming pool in the middle of their midst. They said, oh, it’s not appropriate, they’re going to have naked women running around, everything like that, and they objected to that. And then they started objecting to cars driving through their areas on Shabbat. And there was always tension between the religious, and the secular, from the very start. And unfortunately, what happened was that everything in Israel became politicised. Which party to belong to, what’s your position? And everything was gained in the coalition by negotiation. So life became a matter of negotiation. And when you’re negotiating, you don’t start with a compromise. You start with an extreme position, and then hope, eventually, to reach some sort of balance, and some sort of compromise between them. And that, therefore, became the mentality of the very orthodox world of Israel. The Charedi world also, I have to say, in general, was not ideologically Zionist. And so, religious life in Israel really divides into three different categories. We are leaving aside the Ashkenazi, and the Sephardi divisions, which are slowly, slowly beginning to ameliorate, and look at what are these three positions of religion in Israel? On the right, you have a position of those who say, we believe that Israel ought to be a Jewish state.
And until it is a Jewish state, brought about by the Messiah, we cannot recognise it as anything other than a secular state in the way that America, or England, or France is a secular state. And they are not guided by our religious principles, and therefore, we do not recognise. Now, some of them refused to pay taxes, some of them refused to vote, some of them even went and joined those who wanted to destroy Israel. But in general, that’s not the position of the Charedi world. The Charedi world just says, we’re not ideologically secular. We’re not secular Zionists, and Zionism, we saw as a challenge to Judaism, and we stick with Judaism, and Zionism within Judaism. Then you’ve got the middle ground of what we call, and they said, and you know, we’re not going to get involved in politics about land and peace. Obviously in principle, we believe that peace is more important than land. We don’t believe in hanging onto every inch of land. Peace matters more, people matter more than land. Then you had the national religious in the middle. National religious said we are moderate, we are open-minded. We believe in a Zionist state, but we also want to carry on being pioneers, and expanding Jewish territory to the best of our ability, and we will devote ourselves to that.
We will go into the army, we will fight, we will serve. If our women don’t become soldiers, we’ll do social service, welfare, something like that. And then you had the other religious traditional people who say, you know, we want to live a secular life, and make religion a matter of our private choice and decision. We are neither rejectionists on the one hand, nor do we want to go and settle the land and cause trouble, and we don’t want to be settlers on the other hand, but we want to live as we would in America, or in England, or in France, our Jewish religious life without interference. So here you have a picture of the variety of different religious sections, and even within the Hasidic movement, the movement of the people with the long payot, and with the black hats, and the fur hats, and everything like that, each Hasidic movement has a different origin. Some from Poland, some from Hungary, some from Belarus, some from Ukraine. And each one of them has a different character. Some of them were pro-Zionist, and some of them were anti-Zionist, and some of them were so anti-anti, you couldn’t sit down to the table with them. And they were all under this general umbrella of Charedi. And all that Charedi meant was, we are devoted primarily to the survival of Judaism above all else. Above all other considerations, this is our priority.
And therefore, our values take priority. But when you try to create an alternative to the dominant society, you have to create an enclave. And they created enclaves, some people call them ghettos, where they said, we want to live our life untroubled by the outside. We don’t want to have adverts of naked women excuse me, of naked women on our bus shelters. We don’t want to be invaded by people on Shabbat, and things like that. We want our own atmosphere. And this is universal around the world. There are so many different religious movements, and enclaves who want to preserve a Christian, or a Muslim environment, and don’t want anybody from the outside to invade the sanctity of their own atmosphere. And this is one particular way of looking at the situation, of creating this enclave. And if you create the enclave, you do it by discipline. Somebody has to control, it’s a controlled environment. We decide who comes in, we decide who belongs, and who doesn’t belong. And within these different enclaves, each one has its own standard. And so very often, one Hasidic group rivals another Hasidic group, and even come to fisticuffs. And not only that, but dynasties founded in Eastern Europe that came to Israel. As these dynasties grow, they fracture and they split. Different sons of the previous rabbi take over different sections, and some of them have a character of being open-minded, and some of them being more closed-minded.
All these varieties rely on control, social control, but they are wonderful in one sense. They have tremendous charitable structures that provide for education, for living. When people want to get married, they’re there. They provide food, and they provide health, and they provide welfare. They are very supportive. And when a woman gives birth, she has all these people around trying to help, and there’s always support. And it’s amazing, charitable work that they do. And interestingly enough, ironically, this has all been helped by this new world of social welfare, because without social welfare, most of these communities wouldn’t be able to cope with these pressures. But whether it’s in Israel, or whether it’s in England, or France, or America, social welfare has enabled people who are poor to be supported by the state, and to be supported by whichever group gives them more help than the state is able to give. And so, these enclaves are incredibly positive, wonderful institutions and communities where people are comfortable. The problem is, what happens if I don’t want to be controlled? What happens if I don’t want to wear these clothes? What happens if I want to do something else? There’s no room for you in a community like this, you have to go somewhere else.
And every year, there are large numbers who do. But bear in mind that every year, you are producing more and more children in this world. So if your average Charedi woman is having six, 10, 12, even 15 children, if two of them drop out, they’re still way ahead of the demographic game. And they are growing exponentially, all over the world. Not only in Israel, but here in America, there are townships all over New York, and New Jersey that are totally inhabited, and closed, in some respects more than others, to the outside world. And this is the world of the Charedi Jew. It’s, on a moderate way, a way also of the Sephardi Jew. There are some Sephardi communities here, particularly the Syrian, who are very closed, who have their own rules, who have wonderful welfare and support for everybody, who really make sure everybody’s looked after, but it’s a controlled society. And this is one of the challenges of the world we live in. The outside world is so excessively secular, we’ve gone to such extremes where there’s almost no control or no standards at all, that where do you draw the line? Most of us try very hard to find a balance. And so the famous crack goes, people who walk in the middle of the road are likely to get run over. And that’s true, it’s a danger. It’s much harder to weigh up each ethical moral situation. Every position is difficult. If you’re in a secure environment where this is the rule, then this is the rule, it’s fine, it’s much, much easier.
And yet, on the other hand, I would argue, I’d rather, instead of walking in the middle of the road, I’d like to have the opportunity of looking at what’s on both sides. So, I believe that I am, in my life, influenced both by Jewish morality, and by secular morality, in different ways. And this, then, is the challenge that we have when we come to a situation like this. If we go and report sexual abuse to the non-Jewish world, they’ll send people in, take our children away, put them in care, do this, that and the other, and they will try to undermine us. So we mustn’t report it to them. And yet on the other hand, everybody knows that according to Jewish law, if there’s a crime going on and nobody’s dealing with it, you must go to the authorities. There are obligations to go to the police if somebody’s property is being attacked, and not only rely on your own self-defense. So where do we draw the line in this conundrum as to how far we allow our problems be dealt with by the secular, whether it’s in Israel or anywhere else? The other side of a problem like this is, well then fine, then deal with it yourselves. Why aren’t you dealing with it yourselves? If you don’t want to trust those on the outside, do something about it. We all agree that what has been done is terrible.
We might argue about how it was dealt with, but then deal with the situation. And unfortunately, for a long time, the victims have been hounded out of the community for representing a threat to the stability and the control of the community. There is another very important and controversial issue, and that is the issue that theologically, in meeting this new situation, the Charedi rabbis did actually what the Catholics did, in the 19th century, when Darwin started challenging fundamentalism. And they introduced, only in the 19th century, the idea of papal infallibility. The Pope is infallible. Don’t care what the scientists say, I don’t care what the secularists say, the Pope is infallible. And that idea entered into Judaism recently, the idea of what is called Da'as Torah. This is what the Torah says on any issue, and you can’t budge. And Da'as Torah is administered by what we call the gedolim, the great ones. Who are the great ones? The great ones, the gedolim, are men who are usually brilliant, who have studied for years with a phenomenal memory, and their scholarship is immense, that they are giants, academic giants, absolutely. And as they are giants, slowly, as one generation dies out, a new generation comes in, and comes in from the top. So it is a constant gerontocracy, a constant rule of people at the very top. But when people get to nineties, on the way to hundreds, they are infirm, they’re old, their energy is not what the same it was. They are surrounded by helpers, by guardians, by secretaries, who feed what comes into them, and feed out what they want to feed out from them. And whenever there is any issue that takes place in Israel, of any kind, the Charedi world turns to its gedolim. What happens when gedolim sometimes disagree, as they do? Are both of those points of view the opinion of Torah?
And it depends very much on which community you’re in as to whose Da'as Torah opinion of what is right under Torah, where that should, who that person should be, and you abide by that rule. And if you don’t, you’re not part of the community, simple as that. And so, if for example, all gedolim agree, you should not use the internet. You should not have phones with access to the internet. Technically, everybody’s supposed to obey that, but we know that’s not what is happening. It’s not what’s happening because slowly, people are thinking for themselves, and deciding that there’s a problem with the Charedi world. The Charedi world has devalued secular education. It has made religious education the absolute priority, which is not equipping our young men to go and earn a living. And so, this is one of the problems that Charedi world has. The second problem in this category is the issue in Israel, which doesn’t apply outside of Israel. The second issue is that, if in Israel you don’t serve in the army, you cannot get a job, at least not an official job. So the longer you stay, if you like, with exemption, the harder it is ever to get a job to support your family. And so you have hundreds of thousands now of young men who are studying full-time, who aren’t able to support their family, and who aren’t equipped to get a job. And this is one of the huge problems. As the community gets bigger and bigger, the number of very rich people who can support them is not expanding sufficiently to take care of it. We need them to get jobs.
And yet the Charedi world, on principle, is objecting to them getting jobs. Whereas in America, the Charedi world isn’t like that, because you don’t have this problem of the army in America, which you do in Israel. So this has also created a situation of tension between the two worlds in Israel that’s worse than anywhere else, which leads to this defensiveness, which leads to the sort of crisis that we have today. Slowly, I believe things are beginning to change, just as people are ignoring their rabbis over the internet, so increasingly, more people are looking to join the army, to participate in Israeli society, and to go forward, and I believe the situation will get better. But the fundamental issue the religious have on this issue is don’t talk gossip. No lashon hara, no gossip. And there are strict laws about gossip. And yet, and yet, throughout biblical history, the prophets called out every single moral fault of the kings, of the priests, of the ordinary people. They were not frightened to speak out, they were not accused of lashon hara. Very often the kings put them in jail, and punished them. But nobody has said the prophets had no right. Of course they’ll say, ah, who are you? You are not a prophet. I know that’s true, neither a prophet, nor the son of a prophet. But nevertheless, the idea that somebody has to speak out is a fundamental element of our religious tradition.
And in a situation like this, we simply must speak out, and we must encourage people to act. And when somebody says something unconscionable, we must say so.
And on that point, I start the section, I hope, of discussion, and debate, and clarification.
Q&A and Comments:
Disgraced to hear that you get criticism with the only thing you deserve highest praise for all given to us. Yes, unfortunately that’s true. That’s what it’s like. And look, look in America, look at politics wherever you have, you have it all the time.
These are things praising Wendy saying how wonderful she is, which I couldn’t agree with more.
I heard an interview, Susan Mogill says, well no, Mike Dehar mentions a woman in Australia. Yes, there have been women who have been accused of sexual abuse in the Charedi world. Susan Mogill says, “I heard an interview with Naham Yafe, she explains that Charedi do not have confidence or experience with the secular state police or judiciary, the victims don’t know where to turn to when lodging their statements,” and that is true.
And Mike says, “Catholics in Ireland and France,” and Catholics here, and Protestants in South America. Wherever you look, this problem is a universal problem.
“Why was he given a Jewish burial in a Jewish cemetery with a Jewish Charedi Rabbi?”
Barry Goldenberg says. Yes, because the truth of the matter is in principle, one shouldn’t, because suicide is considered to be wrong. But traditionally, now before this, the rabbis have always tried to get round this. And they’ve always tried to say, well, you know, he wasn’t in his, they used to say in England, when the balance of his mind was disturbed, and therefore he wasn’t rational, and therefore we can’t call this a suicide. We call it a sickness. And that enables us to go and participate in a burial. But that doesn’t mean you have to go and praise what a wonderful man he was, and how magnificent he was. And this is a scandal.
Chief Rabbi of Israel went to Walder’s shiva, yes he did, an then afterwards he said, “I’m sorry, I didn’t think about it.” Then he tried to make up for it. “I’m glad you’re covering this subject.” Thank you, Rochelle.
Betty Lowenstein. “My sister worked for Jewish family girls services for many years, young frightened girls came and told of sexual abuse within their families, incest, young girls had nowhere to go.” Yes, this is a problem. It is a problem in every closed society. It’s a problem in Islamic society, where all you have these problems of male circumcision, and all kinds of things, female circumcision. We have forced marriages. You have everything that’s male domination part of it, and this is a sickness in society everywhere. It’s not just us, it’s just that when it comes up, we ourselves take it very personally, and we are very worried.
Mike Dehar, “Has a rabbi watched women coming out of the mikvah?” Yes indeed, that’s happened. There are plenty of, plenty of cases of abuse absolutely everywhere.
Jeremy? Sorry, may jump in and ask you?
[Jeremy] Sure.
I come from, really, an ultra-orthodox family myself. Both Misnagdim and also-
Hasidim.
Hasidim, right. Exactly, my cousins, and we are all very close. We’re all extremely different, and we’re all very close, and I love my cousins. And they live all over the world in Lakewood, in Bnei Brak, et cetera, et cetera. All right, so now then my question to you is, the actual community itself in Israel, the religious community, must be very fractured over this. Now I know that there was a calling of burning books from the one aspect. How did the other side respond? And has this become more, is it more exposed, and is there more an open discussion going on? Or is it still a header? I know it’s been in the newspapers by secular reporters, but I’m curious about what’s going on within the community itself.
The same thing that’s going on in America between the Republicans and the Democrats. Nobody wants to hear another point of view. Everybody is so convinced that their point of view is right, they do not want to hear another point of view, and will not hear another point of view. The question is, what can be done to get people to talk? Now, for example, let’s take my darling brother David, who works so hard on interfaith, and has this wonderful relationship with Muslims, Hindus, Christians of all denominations, and they meet at conferences together, and they talk to each other, and they’re on best of terms with each other. None of that reaches down into the small enclaves of your average Muslim, your average Jew, your average secular or religious. It does not filter down. We are living in a world in which we are not prepared to, most people, don’t seem prepared to hear a different point of view.
The number of people who are is a small little layer at the top, of which this Lockdown University represents that. And the sad fact is that very few Charedi people are going to listen to this. Very few Charedi people, for example, want to hear a woman speak. So, this is an endemic problem. They believe we have to protect ourselves from outside influences, and that’s the only way we’re going to survive. That comes from a defensive position. I believe it’s going to change. If you hit somebody in the stomach, they tighten up. They have been hit in the stomach by the Jewish, and the non-Jewish, and the secular, everywhere are constantly being accused of being barbaric, and primitive, and one thing and another. And so they do defend themselves, and they only feel comfortable in their own world where they’re not being attacked. And as I say, this is what’s happened in American society and British society, doesn’t it?
Yeah, well it’s about leadership. It’s about feeling safe leadership, and there is a level of integrity.
Well yes, and there are leaders who are, have integrity. In all the orthodox enclaves, there are leaders with integrity. But what happens is we tend only to hear those voices that we, if you like, feel scandalised by. And we don’t pay enough attention to those people who say, hold on a minute, it’s not quite what it seems, and there’s another side to this story. So let’s, do you want to come back, Wendy? Or should we carry on with the questions?
No, no, I think let’s carry on. You know, I think that there are, I’m going to start looking for other, we will start looking for other avenues of presenters where we can start putting it out.
Yeah, and I think that’s important to do this, and to have these others, and I hope over time it will have some effect. But at the moment, I’m rather pessimistic about it. It doesn’t mean to say that it won’t get better.
So, you know, I’m asked, “Is sexual abuse in the Charedi community any worse than any other faction of the Jewish community?” No, and not different to anyone in any non-Jewish community. On the contrary, I know if I had to put my numbers, look, of course there have been wife beatings, and sexual abuse of all kinds. But if I had to, and we don’t have reliable statistics, right? So all we’ve got is guesswork based on information, and my guesswork tells me that in the Charedi world, it’s certainly no worse than anywhere else, and still may be a lot better.
So Laurie was speaking to you, Wendy, on this one. “I read little about the Baal Shem Tov. He thought men should be able to make a living and only a few brilliant students should devote themselves to study.” That’s always been a debate from the time of the Talmud, as whether everybody should study, or only a small number of people should study. But the fact is that because you have both points of view in the Talmud, people choose those points of view in the Talmud that support their position, so you can never win. And therefore again, it depends on what community you’re living in.
There is a problem of separation state and religion extremely now. Yes I do, I believe that it would be in the best interest of Israel to separate state from religion. State from religion is separate in America, and the American religious community is thriving, so it doesn’t impede religious life. There is a way of preserving the Jewish identity of the state of Israel without having the rabbinate controlling personal status. After all, already within Israel, the rabbinate have their own private list of who you can marry, and who you can’t. And each Hasidic community has a list of who you can marry, and who you can’t. And so it’s already, in a way, divided, except it’s making life difficult for people who are not religious.
Q: “Is there not a law in the Bible not sleeping with a woman other than your wife?”
A: Yes, there’s no question that this is a breach of law. People are breaking Jewish law in the Charedi community all the time, whether it’s in business ethics, or whether it’s in sexual ethics. Humans is humans, unfortunately.
Emily, thank you, Susan. “Women abused were told don’t complain publicly.” Yes, they put pressure. Communities put pressure to silence in every situation. In any situation, Black, white, Asian, wherever you look, there is family pressure. People are told to shut up and not get the secular people involved. This is a universal problem.
Monty Golden is talking about, “Remind the Charedi community about Noahide laws.” You could remind 'em to kingdom come, they’re utterly convinced, most of them, that they are right, and don’t want to hear another point of view.
So you’re talking about in Montreal lockdown, they were supposed to be closed, but Hasidic schools opened. Yes, because the Hasidic position is, we have a hotline to God, God will protect us. Of course, sometimes he doesn’t. And it’s the same reason why they say we’re protecting Judaism by not being in the army and by studying. What about Jewish law? It says you must defend yourself. Okay, let other people defend us. So there’s no logic to it, but there is a state of mind which says, I have to protect my position.
Q: “Thank you, Wendy, Rabbi Rosen. Do you think there are two kinds of morality, Jewish and secular?”
A: No, Judaism has the morality, universal morality for all human beings, the seven basic Noahide laws. And although initially, initially, Judaism extended social protection to members of the Jewish community, by the time you get to the period of the Talmud, you already have this idea of respecting everybody, no matter what their religion, no matter where they come from, and no matter how they worship God. So, that’s an evolution in our tradition. Thank you, Dr. Colin.
Sarah, “There’s disadvantage of not having served in the army, but it’s inaccurate to say you can’t get a job in Israel.” Well, maybe things have changed, and maybe things are a lot better. That was certainly the case when I was in Israel, and I’m glad to hear that you can, and this is opening things up to new opportunities, and I hope, and I know there are institutions that are giving education to the Charedi community to enable them to take jobs. So that’s an example of progress that’s taking place.
“This society is run by men, rules of men.” Yes, I agree. But in this society also, women are beginning now to fight back. There’s progress, women are studying now, where taking more of a part, are holding jobs, are earning money, are not allowing themselves to be mowed down. There is progress, it just takes time. We humans take a short term view of things. It takes a long, long time for change to come about. I mean, look at the world outside. There’s still so much murder, and rape, and child abuse going on everywhere. And we’re supposed to be living in a country where we’ve had Judaism, Islam, and Christianity for thousands of years. And the message is fine, but nobody’s listening to the message.
Q: “Charedi can make judgments. Why can’t they introduce a law for sexual abuse?”
A: There is a law about sexual abuse. There is a law, it is forbidden. In the Charedi community, technically, you’re not supposed to touch another woman. So how come this guy was sleeping with another woman, let alone touching another woman? So there are laws, they are just being circumvented, unfortunately, by people. And this is again, human nature.
“Sexual abuse, charismatic Jewish MP, and the youth clubhouse of parliament.” Yes, I know about that case. There has been, you know, plenty of stories of sexual abuse all around the world, everywhere, it’s sad, and one hopes and dreams that there will be a more equitable society. And that’s why some people say we’ve got to wait 'til the Messiah. Human nature is just so bad, so messed up. Either we get so bad the Messiah has to intervene, or eventually we’ll get better, and the Messiah will come, but it’s going to take a long time. Bear in mind, humans have been evolving for millions of years, and we’re looking at what, 1,000 or something like that? 2,000, 3,000, it’s nothing. So, you know, even to this very day, babies are still being born without knowing how to go to the toilet, with dirty nappies or diapers. So unfortunately, each generation, almost on an ethical level, has to start again from scratch. Thank you, Jackie. I’m glad I’ve been able to explain it.
Q: “What happens to the Charedis who are homosexuals?”
A: Well, the same thing. So long as you don’t make an issue of it, there are many homosexuals in the Charedi community and the non-Charedi community who are treated with respect for who they are. There are plenty of sources in the Talmud for respecting people who have biological differences that don’t fit into one section or another. But as with any, there are some rabbis who will be tolerant, and some rabbis who will be intolerant.
“Lashon hara has a moral purpose to do so,” Louise, that’s correct, and you can take scandal, and the Haaretz Chaim, the major authority of the last century who wrote a book on scandal said specifically, you can talk about people to warn other people. You can talk about people who say lashon hara to protect people, to avoid bad business partners. But, people are now so defensive they don’t want to, and they’re trying to impose this absolute blanket authority when there’s no reason.
“What about a sanhedrin to meet and include every branch of Judaism?” Saul Gelgor. Well, the fact of the matter is that let’s take within the Charedi community today, I don’t know of many people I would like to make decisions for me. I prefer the fact that we have different opinions. I don’t want papal authority. I don’t want one person or a team of persons telling us what we have to do. I like options, and variety, and I can’t see the different sectors of Judaism sitting down at the table together on religious matters. They might on civil, on secular, but on religious matters, the gap is so wide that there’s no way you are going to get a sanhedrin with people, for example, who don’t keep Shabbat. Maybe you won’t even have a sanhedrin with people who don’t wear fur hats on Shabbat. How do I know? But it’s totally unrealistic, which is why, as far as I’m concerned, we are better off with the dangers of flexibility. We’re better off with a variety of opinions than we would be if we only had one party line. Problem existing with that or not, yes, there are so many problems where the rabbis could find prompt solutions if they want to, but meanwhile, they’re worried about somebody more orthodox than them saying, oh, you’re not kosher. And everybody’s worried about other opinions. And very few people have the guts, or the independence to stand up to them and say, you are not my constituency. Don’t try to tell me what I should be telling the people who are my constituency. But wherever you’ve had chief rabbis, they’ve all been bullied by people to the right who’ve prevented them from saying what they want to say, or doing what they want to do, or anything like that.
[Wendy] Jeremy, you know, you’re a 100% right. When we were looking, well, you know, my father’s very involved in putting computers into the different yeshivas. And it’s taken years, and years, and years, and years to actually make progress, and we have finally made progress, and I was very involved in that initiative. And what struck me was that every rosh at every yeshiva had a different opinion, and they were the big boss of that little area.
Yes.
[Wendy] And we make the mistake of having, using one brush, you know? A broad brush stroke when we talk about religion, but actually, it’s not that at all. There are many, many, many, many different brushes and every rosh, or every community is looking over their shoulder at the next one, as to be more or less religious, or what they say.
Absolutely, and as you know the joke, two Jews, three opinions or two shuls. We are such an argumentative lot. We are a stiff-necked people, 3,000 years ago, 4,000 years ago, Moses called us a stiff-necked people. We can’t agree on anything. The Talmud is full of constant disagreement. So you’re right, you can’t tie them all with a brush.
No, and the other thing which I’ve found absolutely astonishing was if a child decided that they wanted to get a secular, still Orthodox, and wanted to have a different education, or a secular education, they were, not all communities, but were ousted out of the community, and were a disgrace to their family.
Yeah, and I have a, here in Manhattan, there are a couple of people I know very well who come from the Charedi community, whose job and role is to pick up some of these kids who want a secular education, but are being kicked out of the Charedi community, and they are providing for them. So this is a problem that is being dealt with, but it’s being dealt with under the radar.
Modi'in Illit is an incredible guy. I dunno if he’s still there, but he was there and he-
[Jeremy] Who is this?
The mayor of Modi'in.
Yeah.
When we were looking at yeshivas there, it was fascinating because I went with Mark to go and have a, to go and meet with him, and then he looked, and you know, he asked me a little bit about myself, and then he mentioned, oh Shamel, you know, Shamel Kirsch. And Shamel actually is my dad’s older brother.
Yeah.
And then he said oh you know, we grew up with their children in Bnei Brak. So immediately there was like a, you know, we were family. And then he took me, and he introduced me to the kids, and he showed me this centre for children who were still, they’re sitting there in their jeans, and they were playing instruments, and he was, you know, he said, these are kids who do not want to be, you know, who want to be slightly, have a slightly secular education. They still want to be ultra-Orthodox, they want to go into the army, and we are protecting them, and looking after them, and sending 'em on a track. So, I just wanted to thank you very, very much for a very, very interesting and thought-provoking presentation. Thanks a million. I dunno, how many more questions are there, and how many do you want to answer?
Well, there are plenty more. I’m happy to go on if you don’t mind.
Definitely, I don’t mind, thank you.
Okay, so, where am I down at, 249?
Q: Somebody asked me is my father Rabbi Kopul Rosen?
A: Yes he was, Rabbi Kopus Rosen was my father.
Q: How do you see Charedi influence in the Knesset impacting desire for both restrictions?
A: Well, look at the Knesset any time. Look at the Knesset in Israel. They’re fighting with each other, calling each other names, insulting each other. The Knesset is a good example. This is Jewish life, secular and religious together. It’s a mess. We are a mess. I believe that this is the best argument for the existence of God, that we have survived, despite all this mess, and we’re still surviving. I’m not saying that too seriously, but you know, tongue in cheek.
Robert asks also about lashon hara. I shouldn’t translate lashon hara as gossip. Lashon hara means bad language, which is usually translated as gossip. Gossip means when you are telling something about somebody else for no good reason. If you’re telling somebody about something else for good reason, to protect them, that’s not gossip. In the past, many colleagues have said this is not lashon hara. Secular police investigate abuse and support the victims and families have not automatically removed children.
Well, it depends. Some do, and some don’t. That’s right, I mean there are a lot of very sensitive Jewish and non-Jewish social workers who try very hard, and there is much more now of Charedi people going into, in America certainly, and in Britain, into secular civil social services to meet this situation, and setting up cooperation between them. So a lot is being done. Don’t think nothing’s being done to solve this problem. It is being done.
Q: Why don’t the causes of so-called observant people committing sexual abuse?
A: Because people commit sexual abuse. People can’t control themselves, some people, and it happens everywhere. Men is men. Most men are guided by a certain part of their anatomy. That’s the general rule in life, unfortunately. Most people don’t get to hear a different point of view. I think this is your best point. It’s a problem of all faiths, it is. You haven’t mentioned the spectrum of in Charedi life. Getting married, yes, that’s a huge, big problem. You want your daughters to get married, if there’s a whiff of scandal. There was a time in the Charedi world that if somebody went to see a psychiatrist, they were considered dangerous, and their children were unmarriageable. Thank God that’s changed now. There has been development in that area, but this is a problem of getting married.
Q: What are people going to say about my children, and whether they are infected in some way?
A: This is a problem. And that’s why a lot of people who are victims do have to move out, and feel they have to move out, and I think it’s horrible that they do. But sometimes a clean break gives an opportunity. Change of place, that’s not a solution, but it’s better than nothing, but it is a very big problem. Very big problem. Simon, hi Simon.
Q: “Where’s the sense of negotiating leading towards?”
A: I think it’s leading to progress. I’m still optimist. I’m a big fan of Stephen Pinker new book on what’s wrong with probability and rationalism, and he talks about at the end, it’s not his phrase, the better angels of our nature. I am optimistic in the long run we’ll get there, but it does take time.
“You’re skirting the sex issue. Sex manual requires copulation through a hole in the sheet.” No it doesn’t, that’s utter rubbish. Anybody who says it requires copulation through a hole in a sheet is looking at, in fact, a Catholic custom of copulation through the sheet. That is simply not the case. There may be individuals who do it, but it is not Jewish law, and the numbers of people who do it must be very weird and strange, but that’s simply not the question. That’s simply not true. Ask anybody within the Charedi community about making love through a hole in the sheet. And I’ve lived in the Charedi community for long enough in my life to know what I’m talking about. It’s crap, nonsense, gossip.
Wendy, yes I understand you did, thank you. You don’t address hypocrisy. We’re all hypocrites. Unfortunately, to some extent, we are all hypocrites. We all dress up for the big occasion. We all put, if we don’t put makeup on, we put cologne on. We all try to put on our best face, and some of us are bigger hypocrites than others. Hypocrisy is a big problem. I was just studying today with somebody, a part of the Talmud in which a famous rabbi, Rav Gamaliel says, “I don’t want to take any student into my synagogue, into my sort of academy, whose is not , whose inside is not the same as his outside. In other words, I don’t want any hypocrites, any pretence, and they deposed him. And when they deposed him, they opened up the synagogue, the academy, and hundreds and thousands of people came in who had been barred. The truth is, nobody’s perfect. Very few people are perfect.
Q: What about if you have no flour, no bread?
A: Ein Kemach, Ein Torah, yes there’s that point of view that you need to earn a living, and you shouldn’t rely on other people. But there are other points of view saying nothing more magnificent than studying Torah. And if you do study Torah, somebody else will take care of you.
Q: "How does one separate exemplary works from the author’s despicable lies in their personal life, like Wagner the composer?”
A: This is an excellent question. How do you? These are obnoxious, horrible people. And the straight answer is, don’t listen, don’t read. Nobody forces you to read. There are other people who say you can separate the art from the artist. And this is the debate, and it becomes a personal matter in the same way it’s a personal matter whether you want to buy German cars as opposed to some other car.
Q: How does one, what do statistics matter?
A: Well, you’re right. There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Just try to, sometimes some statistics do matter. Some evidence, crime statistics matter. There are some, but we always should, as you say, beware of statistics, and look for other ones as well. Manchester Charedi by Ben Chasetam, free on Kindle, that’s a recommendation. Manchester Charedi. Sorry, no flour, no Torah.
Description is accurate, but you overlook all orthodox people who do join the army and the world. Yes, that’s true. I did not mention that, Ellie, I should have mentioned there are a lot of orthodox people who join the army. Charedi people. We’re not talking about, shall we say, modern orthodox, or the nationalists who are the best units in the army nowadays. But we’re talking about the black hats, so to speak, they are, and unfortunately, some of them get attacked when they go home, because in every community you’ve got your nutcases. Remember, in the old days, village communities included the village idiot, the village gangster, and the village thief. These communities are communities in which the village idiot, or whoever it is, is part of the community, and gets up to monkey business, and causes trouble. So you know, no community is perfect. It will cease to be a homeland for Jews if religion and state are separated. No it won’t. I don’t see why it should. What makes it a Jewish state is whether the character of the people, and the character of the constitution of the state support a Jewish state. What keeps Judaism alive is Judaism. People don’t keep Judaism alive. Then the state becomes, as United States of America, a state for everybody, and the Jews have their own community within it.
Q: How do you see money that supports communities to allow young women to study will only be able to survive?
A: I don’t understand that. I work with people in who left the community, and I think you’re wrong. Sex crimes are no worse within other communities as they are elsewhere. Abuse is pretty endemic, and if anyone tries to call it out is denied, whistleblower’s life made miserable. Well you know, that’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to your opinion. I don’t believe it is worse than anywhere else, but I know it’s a problem, as it is in every society. Late Rabbi Twerski wrote a great groundbreaking book about domestic violence. He did, and he was very Charedi, and it’s very good, and it definitely deals with this. And those who want to read a Charedi point of view should read Rabbi Twerski, very good. Charedi doesn’t equal Hasidic. No, I said it didn’t. It includes non-Hasidic, anti-Hasidic, a whole range of Hasidic, the Lithuanians, the Misnagdim, and all these different types. I lived in an area with a steeple, after Friday night, they visited brothels across the road. In UK, Charedi boys want to leave the community, can’t even get their names properly in English. Big problem for 'em. Yes, every community has its bad guys. Rabbis prevent secular education. That’s right, and I think they’re wrong.
Q: Do the Charedi believe that prayer and study is more important than behave to others?
A: They shouldn’t. They shouldn’t, because we have a principle in Jewish law that human beings are more important. Absolutely. And could you lie, and inverse, quite inverse, but some people don’t behave that way. Some people don’t abide by the law, no matter how much they say the law matters. You’ve dealt with the macroenvironment. How about the microenvironment, which includes male crowd, avoiding sickness, society and men’s devotion to hero worship, and yes, Dennis, that’s absolutely right. That is part of the problem, and has to be dealt with, but it’s only going to be dealt with internally. And if it doesn’t happen immediately, I believe it is happening slowly in stages. Women in community take up precisely to support men in learning. They do do that. They do take jobs to support men in learning, but in doing that, they are increasingly out in the workplace. They are increasingly asserting themselves. They are beginning to form political groups to counteract male chauvinism, and a lot is changing.
Q: What do you think will happen with girls who came forward?
A: I don’t know what’s going to happen. My guess is they’re going to have to move to different societies. I have a privilege taking your tour on Wednesday, and the little we’ve covered, appreciate the beauty. Thank you very much. I’ve heard him saying what Da'as Torah means. Da'as Torah literally means the the opinion of Torah, which means, in other words, that there is only one correct opinion, and that one correct opinion is something which is a problem. It is also used to mean only one person can decide what that one opinion is. Now, if that would be a matter of Jewish law, fair enough, you might argue a case to be made. But if it’s an opinion as to where I should invest my money, or where I should go to school, or who I should go out with, then I think that is something that should be left up to the individual to decide. Surely the meaning of the Messiah has been kidnapped. Yes, I’m afraid it is.
Q: After Rabbi Akiva, “Is Charedi leadership different about abuse of men? What about abuse of girls?”
A: No, both of these are the similar problems. There’s no excuse for either, and there’s no excuse for protecting either, absolutely.
Q: If you say accuracies are not available, how can you say there are fewer in this community than others?
A: Only again, in the end, it is a matter of comparing certain areas. For example, statistics on violence gives some indication as to where you are. But in the end, of course, one relies to a large extent on one’s own, if you like, experiences to come to some sort of situation, like deciding whether somewhere is dangerous or not. Concept of the in a lecture. Yes, I’d be happy to speak about the . I’ll put this on my list of things to talk about. I have talked about it before, but I’ll come back to it in the future. Judaism is not an all or nothing religion. No, it definitely isn’t, Adrian. It’s not an all or nothing religion, I agree with you 100%. Some people like to think it is, and it’s their choice if they choose to make it. Assimilation and marrying out is reducing the population.
Q: High birth rate of Charedi is reversing this trend. Is this to be welcomed?
A: Of course, I believe the trend to have more children and grow the Jewish people is to be welcomed. I think it is. I just hope it goes hand in hand with a more open. and a fairer society, and with options for those people who want an alternative. But yes, to help Judaism survive, I believe religion and study play a terribly important part. And without it, what’s our culture? Thank you Fern Libo, Peter Page says,
Q: “Rabbi, do you believe the right of someone racially Jewish wishing to enjoy freedom of religion?”
A: Yes, I do believe in freedom of choice. And the Torah itself says you should have the freedom of choice. You’ll face the consequences if you abandon Judaism, but if that’s all right with you, the consequences are still, you won’t live a Jewish life, and be part of a great culture. But I do believe in freedom of choice, absolutely.
Wendy, you want to carry on? We’ve still got, I don’t know-
No, no, no, just to clarify just one thing. There was somebody that said that when young girls come out, and they’re exposed sexual abuse in the community, that they are expelled from the community, and they go through a terrible time.
Yeah.
My daughter actually had that experience. I don’t know, I can’t quite remember how she met this young woman, but somehow this woman, this young woman is, I’ve taken her under my wing. Actually, Justine has taken her under her wing, and she was, wanted to talk on Lockdown University about her experiences, and I just wasn’t sure about it. I’m not even sure how, if one should even go that route, but I just know that her own experience was absolutely shocking.
Yeah.
And the reaction from the community was shocking, and she was not protected by the community.
[Jeremy] Yeah.
And that is a great shame, and I’m sure there are organisations that are out there looking after these young women, but why are they not more visible?
Yes, well that’s true, because they’re not getting the support they ought to. But yes, that’s true. Without any question. It’s shocking, and it’s painful, it’s heartbreaking. It’s what, technical term is . It desecrates God’s name. It demeans Judaism, because people will turn around and say, well, if that’s what religious Judaism produces, well you know what, what’s the point? It’s a failure, and it is a failure, and they should recognise it as a failure. But I think we are still dealing, I know you might sound this is dramatic, with a traumatised world. I think that the Charedi world is a traumatised world, both as a result of the Holocaust, both as a result of the tension within Israeli society, it is severely traumatised, and I think it will take a long time to recover.
Well then, it’s the responsibility of the women, and the women leadership within the community to take the bull by the horns and actually-
Easier said than done. Yeah, it’s tough. Easier said, but I think over time, they will. But at this moment, as I say, they’re also traumatised.
Okay, well food for thought everybody who’s on this, who’s on this Lockdown University, and for our phone participants, and I know that there are one or two. I see my cousins are on. Even if two or three people take up this issue, we’ve achieved something. All right, Jeremy, back to you, thanks.
Okay, so where are we here? Getting towards the end.
Q: Steven, “We should condemn Walder’s betrayal, but should we not be praying for his tortured soul?”
A: We can’t pray for somebody else’s soul. We can’t, basically. Once that person, as far as I’m concerned, is in heaven or hell, or wherever it is, it’s God’s business. We should be praying for the welfare of the living, and for the people who are still down here. Abused Charedi women often urged by their rabbis to stay in the marriage for the sake of shalom by it to keep the peace. Yes they do, unfortunately. But again, how many marriages in the secular world are held together for ulterior motives, either for the sake of the children, or for the sake of this, and sake of that.
And again, Monica Goodwin, look at what happens to children and women in Afghanistan, everywhere. But forget Afghanistan, in America, how many children are taken off the streets and sold into slavery, into, what do we call it, paedophilia? The horrible things are going on in every society. Let’s not forget that. Monica and Danny, thank you for an excellent presentation. Living in Israel, I see progress among the Charedis living near me. Thank goodness you do, I’m delighted.
Morris, “I’m pleased you read Pinker I recently read his 'Enlightenment Now’ by Pinker, and in his book he demonstrates the extent to which many facets in life, most of the world have been tremendous progress in number and decades.” We’ve come a long way, we have indeed, but there’s, on the the micro level, on the individuals being nasty, mean individuals, there’s still as many as there ever were, probably.
Q: When did female determine the Jewish line?
A: Well, this is an old story. It goes back already, in one respect, to biblical times. But, without going into the argument about at what moment, certainly for the last 2,000 years, this has been the determining factor. I think it goes back a long way. Some people will argue with me about the difference between male line for tribe, female line for people. But you can see from the Torah that the Jewish mother was defining, even when she was married to an Egyptian father. Whereas the son did have a problem with the tribe. Hillel Association, Israel’s worthwhile charity that supports Charedi right to choose. I’m glad to hear about that. The book “Hush,” comes to mind. Possibly people married too young in the Charedi community, and may lead to sexual abuse in and out of marriage. Yes, but there are sexual abuses in and out of marriage in the non-Charedi community. And people who get married later on are more likely to divorce, or earlier. There’s no simple, there’s no golden bullet, there’s no single answer. I know many people who got married at 19, or 17, even 17, who have been happily married the whole of their lives, so who knows? Thank you for a crucially important series of subjects. Definite outrage.
Teddy says, “I’m only making Charedi look good.” I’m not trying to make the Charedi look good, and you’re quite wrong if you think that. I mean, I’m prepared to accept bad when it’s bad, whoever it comes from, and wherever it comes from. Outrage in orthodox community over sexual abuse. Yes there is, and more needs to be done, and I hope this will encourage more to be done, Louise. Let’s hope so. India’s terrible in rape cases. Yes, that’s another good example. Ilana Markata, Ruth Resnick opened shelters for the abused in Israel. She talks English, I can give you her number. Thank you again, yes, we should know. We should have information about these things so that we can donate. Soldier don’t have to convert their captured wives. That’s a long story, Mike Dine. It wasn’t as simple as you think it was, and besides, that hasn’t been effective for the last 3,000 years, so I think we’ve come a little way since then. Thank you, Monica. We’re talking about this. Maybe discussion will bring more attention to these problems. Thank you, well that’s it. And so, at this level, I think we’re ready to sign off, Wendy.
Ah, thanks so much. Thank you so much, Jeremy. You know, I just wanted to say that I think that we really have to think about this not only in terms of the Charedi community, but just in terms of us giving too much power or authority to people in power, and that we have power and authority.
Absolutely.
[Wendy] Over. I actually had an incident with my son when he was 14 years old. He was offered a job somewhere. I’m not going to be too specific. Anyway, that person came to my house, and we were having a chat, and then he invited my son to go with him on a walk in Kenwood, and absolutely my antenna went up, and I said, absolutely not, and that was the end of the job, and that was the end of the relationship. So I think that one really has to have one’s antenna out. There are dysfunctional people everywhere.
Yeah.
[Wendy] We just have to call it, and of course the community is vulnerable, or children are vulnerable, or even women are vulnerable, these are all, they should not be taboo subjects. So if anything came out of today, I’d like to say thank you very much for addressing what often is a taboo subject, and I would like to, you know, to hopefully, you all will continue this discussion offline.
Very good. I am happy, delighted, anybody can contact me.
[Wendy] Thank you very, very much. So thank you, everybody. And on that note, I’m going to, I don’t why I can’t do my video, but anyway, I want simply to say thank you very much to everyone for joining us today, and we will see you tomorrow. Thanks, Jeremy. We will see you in two weeks’ time to follow this challenging discussions.
Thank you. Bye, everybody.
[Wendy] Thanks, bye.